7 Days Left to Bury Mittersill

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  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 938
    It's not just lift construction. A lot of things in general are done at the last minute.

    I've read the "manufacturers response" like 3 times and can't understand what it's trying to say.
  • Bill29Bill29 advanced
    Posts: 242
    I remember that when Waterville Valley opened the main mountain the main chairlift wasn't completed and certified by the state (if that's what they call that safety process) until about Dec. 15. And the day the state completed its safety tests, it began to snow. Tom Corcoran's luck of the Irish. 
    I asked some people why they waited so long to put the lift up. They said that construction workers are busy on bigger projects throughout the summer and become available late in the fall, I have no idea whether that's true or not. I do remember that one area (Haystack comes to mind but I could be wrong about that) that delayed installation of a lift for a year because an early snowfall buried the lift towers which were stacked on the mountain. 
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 938
    Same thing IIRC happened to the original Killington gondola and the single at MRG.
  • Posts: 5
    whats the rocket lift at cannon???
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 750
    Rocket is the quad at Crotched (CM).
  • edited January 28 Posts: 5
    timberleaf...all of the stuff you are referring to about the t-bar have absolutely nothing to do with cannon mt. or any of cannon mt. employees....also the b77 requires a load test on aerial lifts usually done with water barrels and done to a 110% load capacity however this is a t-bar and if you have any insight on how to do do this that would be fantastic and the industry could use some of that insight....it has an exceptance test which it passed from my understanding...and if you could find lift inspectors anywhere that have the knowledge and competency of the NH tram board I would be very impressed..also from my understanding the technicians at cannon recommended upgrading the size of the brake to avoid this problem but the manufacturer said it was not necessary...so from the rumor mill it sounds to me like cannon mt. is doing there job very proficiently however they are running into a wall with the ski lift manufacturer....
  • Posts: 5
    gotcha I thought cm was referring to cannon as the zoomer chair is really close to the trail rocket
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 938
    It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that surface lifts are not aerial lifts; they are not subject to a load test.  Load tests are to test if the various braking systems work. A roll back on a chair lift is disasterous but on a T-Bar or other surface lift, all a rider has to do is bail out to the side/let go of the T.
  • Posts: 2,012

    gotcha I thought cm was referring to cannon as the zoomer chair is really close to the trail rocket


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  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 39
    Never my intent to cast any doubt on the competence or dedication of any of the employees.  I honestly feel lucky to have such great people taking care of me every time I go and I do my best - not good enough - to thank them for everything they do whenever I'm there.

    My beef is with management - senior management.  I genuinely believe that over time the senior management at Cannon has been captured by special interests and is now simply a puppet for those interests.  The prioritization of race programs, race events, and race facilities over all other activities is obvious to anyone paying any attention to the operation of the mountain.

    It's money, it's politics, and it's just gross.

    But that's life, no?  I'm moving on.  And as frustrating as it is to watch them posture their way into annexing an entire mountain for their own private use (Mittersill), I'm also enjoying the fact that they are now all over there... I just stay over here (Cannon proper) and I'm good.  

    I do feel badly for those that loved Mittersill for what it was and have been forced to watch it turn into what it is.  But I was never really a Mittersill fan and, fundamental fairness issues aside, I'm happy to just let them have it.  In fact, when they start the inevitable fundraising campaign for the Mitersill base build-out aka relocation of Ernies I may even contribute.
  • Posts: 5

    gotcha I thought cm was referring to cannon as the zoomer chair is really close to the trail rocket


    Welcome to Snow Journal 2.0! You're our 300th member!
    obienick said:

    It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that surface lifts are not aerial lifts; they are not subject to a load test.  Load tests are to test if the various braking systems work. A roll back on a chair lift is disasterous but on a T-Bar or other surface lift, all a rider has to do is bail out to the side/let go of the T.

    Yes you are correct...it cannot be loaded to 110% like a normal aerial lift but still goes through a series of brake tests...a rollback is not acceptable however and from my understanding the staff at cannon went back and forth with the lift manufacturer citing that they thought the brake was insufficient to no avail until it was actually tested with a 100% load....after the failure they contacted the manufacturer to get replacement parts, unfortunately the part had to come from Germany and took two to three weeks to arrive...so it was out of cannon staffs hands...this is just what I interpreted so it could be a longer story
  • Posts: 5

    Never my intent to cast any doubt on the competence or dedication of any of the employees.  I honestly feel lucky to have such great people taking care of me every time I go and I do my best - not good enough - to thank them for everything they do whenever I'm there.


    My beef is with management - senior management.  I genuinely believe that over time the senior management at Cannon has been captured by special interests and is now simply a puppet for those interests.  The prioritization of race programs, race events, and race facilities over all other activities is obvious to anyone paying any attention to the operation of the mountain.

    It's money, it's politics, and it's just gross.

    But that's life, no?  I'm moving on.  And as frustrating as it is to watch them posture their way into annexing an entire mountain for their own private use (Mittersill), I'm also enjoying the fact that they are now all over there... I just stay over here (Cannon proper) and I'm good.  

    I do feel badly for those that loved Mittersill for what it was and have been forced to watch it turn into what it is.  But I was never really a Mittersill fan and, fundamental fairness issues aside, I'm happy to just let them have it.  In fact, when they start the inevitable fundraising campaign for the Mitersill base build-out aka relocation of Ernies I may even contribute.
    I've also been skiing at cannon for 33 years since I was 2 and loved mittersill but personally am pleased with the new venue and am able to still find plenty of untouched "secret terrain" on mittersill...in my opinion ski areas expand, it's what they all do every year and that was the obvious expansion route

  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,119

    The prioritization of race programs, race events, and race facilities over all other activities is obvious to anyone paying any attention to the operation of the mountain.

    It's money, it's politics, and it's just gross.
    This happens at a lot of hills, race program or park stuff moves into a beloved section or trail and takes over. Seems to be inherent to the business, ski areas have product and they have to market segments of it in a manner that makes the most business sense.  I've been in your shoes at a couple of resorts.  I feel your pain, but as a capitalist I won't say business is "gross,"  just that sometimes I'm disappointed and saddened, even angered by these business decisions.  In the case of Cannon, state owned, it's understandably harder to swallow.


  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 39

    The prioritization of race programs, race events, and race facilities over all other activities is obvious to anyone paying any attention to the operation of the mountain.

    It's money, it's politics, and it's just gross.
    I feel your pain, but as a capitalist I won't say business is "gross,"  just that sometimes I'm disappointed and saddened, even angered by these business decisions.  In the case of Cannon, state owned, it's understandably harder to swallow.


    Agreed.  Business is business - it is neither great nor gross, it simply is.  But in this case you have a public asset in the middle of a public park controlled by appointed public servants and staffed by public employees.  To that add money and politics.  The result is special favors granted to connected and influential individuals that redirects public assets away from the majority and into the control of the minority.  That - IMO - is gross.

    Not to go all 14th amendment here, but I have never been able to rationalize how one group of citizens can exclude another group of citizens from access to public land simply by virtue of belonging to a private club.  This is different from a private enterprise controlling its own assets.  IOW: it's ok with me anywhere but at a state owned facility.  And I get it that they have signed agreements that allow this - that's how they do it - but how do you rationalize those agreements?  

    Other than to inject money and politics and now we're back to, well, gross.
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 750
    Maybe they rent it out, as a wedding or birthday party would rent out a state park picnic area for their private event? I know that is a ridiculous example, but I am no constitutional scholar....
  • witch_hobblewitch_hobble novice
    Posts: 4
    +1 on both of timberleaf's comments. Articulating commonly held frustrations.
  • CannonballCannonball advanced
    Posts: 130
    Maybe they rent it out, as a wedding or birthday party would rent out a state park picnic area for their private event? I know that is a ridiculous example, but I am no constitutional scholar....
    I once tried to rent out the tram at Cannon for a private party.  This would have been late season when the tram is usually closed but Cannon is still open for skiing. I had hoped to have a party in the tram base and allow our guests to ride the tram throughout the day.  I planned to pay for all expenses of operating the tram, the lodge, etc.  I spent several weeks negotiating this with Cannon. They were receptive to the idea and very cooperative in terms of planning the needs and options.  What finally tripped up the whole plan was that Cannon insisted that if the tram was running the general public would have to be allowed to also use it (even though I would be paying for all of the operation, and it would not have been running otherwise).  I had no intention of paying for a private party that the public could attend.  I was disappointed but I wasn't upset by it, it made some sense, and I understood it as a reasonable policy for a publicly owned facility. 

    The same does not seem to apply in the case of FSC.  This all adds up to Timberleaf's point about: "...special favors granted to connected and influential individuals that redirects public assets away from the majority and into the control of the minority."   
  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 39

    I once tried to rent out the tram at Cannon for a private party.  


    I seriously need to get on your friend list because if you ever do pull this off, I want in!  

    You'll like me, I'll help out with the set up - I'll bring my pressure washer the night before to take all the mold off the ceilings of the tram cars.  Promise.

    What's the over/under on the last time those cars were actually cleaned?  I'm going with early 90s...  

    (I don't recommend doing this but I can't help myself)  If you look closely at the insides of the cars it really is not pleasant...  but I'd clean it up for our party :)
  • ski_itski_it expert
    edited January 31 Posts: 1,740

    I once tried to rent out the tram at Cannon for a private party.  


    I seriously need to get on your friend list because if you ever do pull this off, I want in!  

    You'll like me, .....


    +1 - Ok, can't guarantee that 2nd part.

    Cannonball's post makes me finally understand why they call the T-bar "semi-private".

    ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
  • CannonballCannonball advanced
    Posts: 130
    Haha! All of SJ is invited if I ever pull it off!  This was 5 years ago and it was intended to be a blow-out bash for our 20 year wedding anniversary.  After it didn't work out with Cannon we redirected our budget into buying a ski house.  It was probably a much wiser investment. So I can thank Cannon for that one. 

    But the point remains.... they told me that it is a state policy that a private entity couldn't buy their way into private use of a portion of Cannon.  Even for one day. 
  • ski_itski_it expert
    Posts: 1,740
    Yes a "semi-private" tram party.
    ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,119

    Cannon insisted that if the tram was running the general public would have to be allowed to also use it




    So is the public permitted to use the t-bar whenever it is running? If not I would call foul on this
  • riverc0ilriverc0il advanced
    Posts: 256

    My beef is with management - senior management.  I genuinely believe that over time the senior management at Cannon has been captured by special interests and is now simply a puppet for those interests.
    I dunno about the whole "special interests" thing (and I recognize the challenge of managing an area in the public environment that encompases the Cannon operation and its unique attributes, issues, politics, etc). But I certainly find that the management of Cannon has not retained the spirit of the area. 

    I think senior management at Cannon is focused on justification and driving specific numbers upon which they feel like they are being judged. I can't help but strongly doubt that the senior leadership of Cannon skis much if at all based on how they run the operation...

    Cannon went from having one of the best and most reliable snow reports to having one of the worst, most hyperbolic and over exaggerated snow reports in the business. It seems all about driving numbers and self justification... they need to show that the area is improving and justifying their efforts. 

    The snowmaking improvements this year were amazing but Cannon continues to sell its soul to improve certain things while other important things under the radar that need fixing languish. And many more that were just fine the way they were are "improved" to make Cannon a bit more homogenized year after year.

    But no management will ever homogenize that mountain. Despite infinite efforts, Cannon is a bitch of a mountain. And those that like that bitch will keep coming back despite those efforts. Though it just seems to diminish in stature just a tiny bit every year...
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