Categories of Ski Areas

245

Comments

  • Posts: 933
    I agree: Ragged is more on the order of Crotched. Once Tenney opens officially for lift service it belongs under Regional Ski Area, also.

    Where would we put Balsams-Wilderness?
  • ski_itski_it expert
    edited June 3 Posts: 1,653
    IIRC Blackwater is only open to the local public just one evening a year. So should be on the private list.
    ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
  • Posts: 1,927

    I agree: Ragged is more on the order of Crotched. Once Tenney opens officially for lift service it belongs under Regional Ski Area, also.

    Where would we put Balsams-Wilderness?


    They aren't open and who knows when they will be.

    I suggest Maine next
    - Sam
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717
    OK: Here is the tentative NH list.  As per Sam's (NES13) suggestion, let's add ME.  Nobody else interested in playing?

    Destination
    - Sugarloaf
    - Sunday River

    Regional Ski Area
    - Mt. Abram
    - BMOM

    ...

    Fill in the rest.
    ---
    Private Areas
    - Blackwater
    - Clancy
    - Red Hill
    - Rowell Hill
    - Wight

    Local Ski Tows
    - Abenaki
    - Arrowhead
    - Mount Eustis
    - Gateway Hills
    - Kanc
    - Mount Prospect
    - Veterans Memorial

    Feeder Areas
    - Campton
    - Granite Gorge
    - King Pine
    - McIntyre
    - Storrs Hill
    - Whaleback

    Regional Ski Area
    - Black Mountain
    - Crotched
    - Dartmouth
    - Pat's Peak
    - Ragged Mountain

    Regional Resorts
    - Cranmore
    - Gunstock
    - Mount Sunapee

    Large Ski Areas
    - Wildcat

    Destination Resorts
    - Attitash
    - Bretton Woods
    - Cannon
    - Loon
    - Waterville Valley

    Please add or suggest changes.
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 502
    Despite the amenities and "big hill feeling" at Dartmouth Skiway I would argue they don't belong in regional ski areas. They exist purely to serve the college, both the alpine teams and PE programs (the college cuts them a $400-600K) check a year to cover operating loss. They do not market themselves whatsoever, they have very little water to use for snowmaking, and their yearly skier visits are down in the feeder category. Though it also might be a long stretch to put them in that category.
  • Posts: 1,927
    newpylong said:

    Despite the amenities and "big hill feeling" at Dartmouth Skiway I would argue they don't belong in regional ski areas. They exist purely to serve the college, both the alpine teams and PE programs (the college cuts them a $400-600K) check a year to cover operating loss. They do not market themselves whatsoever, they have very little water to use for snowmaking, and their yearly skier visits are down in the feeder category. Though it also might be a long stretch to put them in that category.


    I think it fits because the draw of Dartmouth is over a larger area than a feeder area would be. Liftopia and Ski NH deals also help bring in skiers from a good part of the Connecticut River Valley and beyond.
    - Sam
  • Posts: 1,927
    Here's my Maine list. I think that Maine is interesting because there are a number of surface-lift-only areas that I feel qualify for the feeder area category instead of the local tow category. I also think some of the regional ski areas simply qualify because of the distance to another ski area.

    Private Areas
    - O'Connor
    - Pinnacle

    Local Ski Tows
    - Baker Mountain
    - Eaton Mountain
    - Powderhouse Hill
    - Quoggy Jo
    - Sprice Mountain

    Feeder Areas
    - Hermon Mountain
    - Mount Jefferson
    - Lonesome Pine Trails
    - Lost Valley
    - Titcomb Mountain

    Regional Ski Areas
    - Mount Abram
    - Big Rock
    - Big Squaw
    - Black Mountain
    - Camden Snow Bowl

    Regional Resorts
    - Shawnee Peak

    Large Ski Areas
    *none* (Saddleback would fit in this category)

    Destination Resorts
    - Sugarloaf
    - Sunday River
    - Sam
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited June 4 Posts: 502

    newpylong said:

    Despite the amenities and "big hill feeling" at Dartmouth Skiway I would argue they don't belong in regional ski areas. They exist purely to serve the college, both the alpine teams and PE programs (the college cuts them a $400-600K) check a year to cover operating loss. They do not market themselves whatsoever, they have very little water to use for snowmaking, and their yearly skier visits are down in the feeder category. Though it also might be a long stretch to put them in that category.


    I think it fits because the draw of Dartmouth is over a larger area than a feeder area would be. Liftopia and Ski NH deals also help bring in skiers from a good part of the Connecticut River Valley and beyond.
    You're lucky to run into anyone that doesn't live in Lyme or go to the college during the week there. The weekends aren't much busier. There is no way that the Skiway belongs in the category of Ragged, Crotched, Pat's, etc and the yearly visits show it. I know of very few outside of those on ski forums who would drive any type of distance to the Skiway. There are other areas like Whaleback that are on Liftopia and also members of Ski New Hampshire, yet I don't consider regional ski areas either. Perhaps there needs to be a "local areas" grouping that includes feeder areas, which Dartmouth certainly would align better with.

    My .02
  • Posts: 1,927
    newpylong said:

    newpylong said:

    Despite the amenities and "big hill feeling" at Dartmouth Skiway I would argue they don't belong in regional ski areas. They exist purely to serve the college, both the alpine teams and PE programs (the college cuts them a $400-600K) check a year to cover operating loss. They do not market themselves whatsoever, they have very little water to use for snowmaking, and their yearly skier visits are down in the feeder category. Though it also might be a long stretch to put them in that category.


    I think it fits because the draw of Dartmouth is over a larger area than a feeder area would be. Liftopia and Ski NH deals also help bring in skiers from a good part of the Connecticut River Valley and beyond.
    You're lucky to run into anyone that doesn't live in Lyme or go to the college during the week there. The weekends aren't much busier. There is no way that the Skiway belongs in the category of Ragged, Crotched, Pat's, etc and the yearly visits show it. I know of very few outside of those on ski forums who would drive any type of distance to the Skiway. There are other areas like Whaleback that are on Liftopia and also members of Ski New Hampshire, yet I don't consider regional ski areas either. Perhaps there needs to be a "local areas" grouping that includes feeder areas, which Dartmouth certainly would align better with.

    My .02

    What I suggested was because every time I go there I often meet numerous people on the lift who drive 1.2+ hours to get there.
    - Sam
  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,061
    People routinely travel from the UK to stay and ski at Attitash, heck I travel from NJ to ski and stay at Attitash.  There are condos all over the place, and a big hotel that fills up nicely on weekends. 

     If that doesn't qualify as a destination ski resort, what does?
  • ceoceo intermediate
    Posts: 20
    I'd also flip Cannon to Large Ski Area. If it qualifies as Destination Resort by virtue of all the housing down in Lincoln, then Wildcat does too because of North Conway.
  • Posts: 1,927
    ceo said:

    I'd also flip Cannon to Large Ski Area. If it qualifies as Destination Resort by virtue of all the housing down in Lincoln, then Wildcat does too because of North Conway.

    Cannon does have lodging right there at Mittersill and in Franconia.
    - Sam
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717

    Here's my Maine list. I think that Maine is interesting because there are a number of surface-lift-only areas that I feel qualify for the feeder area category instead of the local tow category. I also think some of the regional ski areas simply qualify because of the distance to another ski area.

    Private Areas
    - O'Connor
    - Pinnacle

    Local Ski Tows
    - Baker Mountain
    - Eaton Mountain
    - Powderhouse Hill
    - Quoggy Jo
    - Sprice Mountain

    Feeder Areas
    - Hermon Mountain
    - Mount Jefferson
    - Lonesome Pine Trails
    - Lost Valley
    - Titcomb Mountain

    Regional Ski Areas
    - Mount Abram
    - Big Rock
    - Big Squaw
    - Black Mountain
    - Camden Snow Bowl

    Regional Resorts
    - Shawnee Peak

    Large Ski Areas
    *none* (Saddleback would fit in this category)

    Destination Resorts
    - Sugarloaf
    - Sunday River

    Re, NES13's ME list; my only disagreement is with Big Squaw.  I'd drop it to feeder.  (If they get the upper lift running, it would be a large ski area.)
  • Posts: 1,927

    Here's my Maine list. I think that Maine is interesting because there are a number of surface-lift-only areas that I feel qualify for the feeder area category instead of the local tow category. I also think some of the regional ski areas simply qualify because of the distance to another ski area.

    Private Areas
    - O'Connor
    - Pinnacle

    Local Ski Tows
    - Baker Mountain
    - Eaton Mountain
    - Powderhouse Hill
    - Quoggy Jo
    - Sprice Mountain

    Feeder Areas
    - Hermon Mountain
    - Mount Jefferson
    - Lonesome Pine Trails
    - Lost Valley
    - Titcomb Mountain

    Regional Ski Areas
    - Mount Abram
    - Big Rock
    - Big Squaw
    - Black Mountain
    - Camden Snow Bowl

    Regional Resorts
    - Shawnee Peak

    Large Ski Areas
    *none* (Saddleback would fit in this category)

    Destination Resorts
    - Sugarloaf
    - Sunday River

    Re, NES13's ME list; my only disagreement is with Big Squaw.  I'd drop it to feeder.  (If they get the upper lift running, it would be a large ski area.)

    That makes sense, the only reason why I said regional was because its the only ski area in the entire region.
    - Sam
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717
    For now, I opted to leave Cannon as destination and Wildcat as Large Ski area.  Perhaps we can do MA next.

    Feeder Areas
    ME
    - Big Squaw
    - Hermon Mountain
    - Mount Jefferson
    - Lonesome Pine Trails
    - Lost Valley
    - Titcomb Mountain
    NH
    - Campton
    - Granite Gorge
    - King Pine
    - McIntyre
    - Storrs Hill
    - Whaleback

    Regional Ski Area
    ME
    - Mount Abram
    - Big Rock
    - Black Mountain
    - Camden Snow Bowl
    NH
    - Black Mountain
    - Crotched
    - Dartmouth
    - Pat's Peak
    - Ragged Mountain

    Regional Resorts
    ME
    - Shawnee Peak
    NH
    - Cranmore
    - Gunstock
    - Mount Sunapee

    Large Ski Areas
    ME

    NH
    - Wildcat

    Destination Resorts
    ME
    - Sugarloaf
    - Sunday River
    NH
    - Attitash
    - Bretton Woods
    - Cannon
    - Loon
    - Waterville Valley
  • Posts: 1,927
    Okay, here is what I would do for Mass:

    Private Areas
    - Easton
    - Mount Greylock
    - Waidlich Tow

    Local Ski Tows
    - Osceloa

    Feeder Areas
    - Blandford
    - Blue Hills
    - Bradford
    - Nashoba Valley
    - Otis Ridge
    - Ward

    Regional Ski Areas
    - Berkshire East
    - Bousquet
    - Butternut
    - Catamount

    Regional Ski Resorts
    - Jiminy Peak
    - Wachusetts

    Large Ski Areas
    *none*

    Destination Resorts
    *none*
    - Sam
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 665
    Based on what I see in their base area development, I'd call Jiminy a destination. Lots of weekenders and ski weekers...
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 502
    Bousquet = feeder.
  • edited June 6 Posts: 1,927

    Based on what I see in their base area development, I'd call Jiminy a destination. Lots of weekenders and ski weekers...


    I definitely would not consider it a destination. To fit the destination category we've been using, it would have to attract people on vacation from multiple states away and/or foreign skiers. People ski there because it's relatively close and convenient, not because it's a large destination resort.
    - Sam
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited June 6 Posts: 502
    Jiminy is most definitely a destination. It does attract from far, though I am unsure how. All that slopeside lodging and amenities do not exist at mountains with only local draw.
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717
    Kudos again to Sam for an excellent list.

    If we go back to the definitions, a destination resort required 1500 feet of vertical.  Jiminy fits the Regional Resort definition.

    However, I would move Wachusett to Regional Ski Area.  It's 95% daytrippers and very few beds specifically there for the ski area.

    Doesn't Catamount have some significant development?  I don't remember from the last time I was there 40+ years ago.  
    IMO, Bousquet is big enough to be a regional ski area.
  • jaytremjaytrem intermediate
    Posts: 64
    The Berkshire resorts are an interesting case. I 've known a number of people from ny/nj that have second homes up there. All ski at least a bit, but often the focus was a place to get away to. The whole area is loaded with folks from further south any time of the year though.
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717
    jaytrem said:

    The Berkshire resorts are an interesting case. I 've known a number of people from ny/nj that have second homes up there. All ski at least a bit, but often the focus was a place to get away to. The whole area is loaded with folks from further south any time of the year though.

    This is true.  Whenever one sets up categories, there are always some that fall on the cusp between a couple of categories.  Based on the arbitrary aspect of the definition of 1500' vertical for a destination resort, no MA, CT or RI area could be a destination resort.  (Graylock Glen might have been if it was completed.)
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 502
    Greylock Glen was only ~750 vertical at max build out.
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    edited June 6 Posts: 1,717
    newpylong said:

    Greylock Glen was only ~750 vertical at max build out.

    Interesting.  I thought the Thunderbolt went 1700' vertical, so I made the incorrect assumption that GG might have had that amount of vertical.  Petersburg Pass, nominally in the Berkshires, had the potential for 1600+, but it was really an NY area.
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 665
    I think the vertical requirement for destination is not needed. Look at Holiday Valley or any of a number of those WNY areas, Seven Springs, PA, or places in the midwest- people have second homes/condos on or near the mountain, and they do big multi-day vacation business, not just daytrippers. Jiminy is MA's only true destination resort, a la others nearby (Mt. Snow, Stratton), just smaller ski area.
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 502

    newpylong said:

    Greylock Glen was only ~750 vertical at max build out.

    Interesting.  I thought the Thunderbolt went 1700' vertical, so I made the incorrect assumption that GG might have had that amount of vertical.  Petersburg Pass, nominally in the Berkshires, had the potential for 1600+, but it was really an NY area.
    It was only built on the lower shoulder of the mountain (Northern side).

  • Bill29Bill29 advanced
    Posts: 236
    I would add Ward Hill - Ski Ward - as a feeder area and Wachusett as a regional ski area.
  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,061
    newpylong said:

    Jiminy is most definitely a destination. It does attract from far, though I am unsure how. All that slopeside lodging and amenities do not exist at mountains with only local draw.

    I'm headed there for a destination wedding in a couple weeks, does that count?   ;)

    Seriously though I never thought of it in the same league as a Loon or Bretton Woods or Mount Snow
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,717

    I think the vertical requirement for destination is not needed. Look at Holiday Valley or any of a number of those WNY areas, Seven Springs, PA, or places in the midwest- people have second homes/condos on or near the mountain, and they do big multi-day vacation business, not just daytrippers. Jiminy is MA's only true destination resort, a la others nearby (Mt. Snow, Stratton), just smaller ski area.

    We'll get to NY and PA.  Holiday Valley will be an interesting argument when we get there.  For now we've done MA, NH and ME.

    For now, if the area doesn't have 1500' of vertical, we're not letting them into the "destination resort category".
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