Hermitage Cash Flow Shortage

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  • mtsnow123mtsnow123 advanced
    Posts: 420

    Last post on their Twitter account was March 19....an ad for a property management company in Arlington, which is a ways away from that area...weird

    I saw that too, very odd. It's also off center.
    image
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 379
    TomWhite said:

    Is the original Hermitage inn still in business?

    It has been operating. They usually close down for much of April and May because frankly there's just not a lot of people in the Valley to justify it's operations once the end of ski season nears and before the early summer season crowds arrive to justify it's operations then....
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 379

    Were there permit related issues that prevented the Ski-LTD/ASC merger of Snow and Haystack or was it strictly budgetary?  


    The geographical location of Mt Snow attracts endless throngs of skiers with tons of money.  I wonder if Mt Snow's contribution to Peak's general financial success is strong.  I'm not a very big fan of Peak, but they've figured out how to make money in very challenging industry and I do like what they did for Crotched.

    Let's face it, a megaplex connection of skiing in the Cold Brook are would rival anything in the East.  Haystack has water.
    As I recall, it was the reality that coordinating private land purchases and the rights to the US forest service land that part of the needed terrain to connect the 2 is on, was felt to have been in this day and age both a financial issue and one with a likely long time with no certain outcome to make it a worthwhile pursuit.  

    Remember that Mount Snow/Peak is well versed in the permitting challenges and costs associated with the process via their experiences with the West Lake snowmaking project.  

    As for the water side of thing, with West Lake online, that's not the big factor that it once was
  • Dirk109Dirk109 novice
    Posts: 13
    From what I understand, the "Club" doesn't own the 6-Pack. It was a member driven purchase.
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 1,102
    Mt. Snow provides the vast majority of revenue for Peak.
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 379
    obienick said:

    Mt. Snow provides the vast majority of revenue for Peak.

    Mount Snow used to be by far and away the biggest revenue source of any of Peak's staple of resorts (roughly 40%), since they acquired Hunter, it's not quite that same level, as Hunter is a solid revenue source for them as well
  • bubblecufferbubblecuffer advanced
    Posts: 301
    obienick said:

    Mt. Snow provides the vast majority of revenue for Peak.

    Good info.  Then all options should be considered at this time.  I hope this is the case.
  • nospeed411nospeed411 novice
    Posts: 9
    DrJeff said:

    There has been rumors here in the valley of a Mt Snow take over.....however I callbjhhjl on that ever happening again.  Sadly Hermitage is worth more dead than alive as far as mechanical assets are concerned.  


    The actual Peak folks I've talked to, who are in somewhat of a position to be in the loop of the companies potential interest in the Hermitage Club and acquiring it, have been quite quick and decisive with a no answer (too much likely $$ for not enough return, too many permitting issues to connect them, not in the overall company strategy, etc) What Peak may have interest in, should The Hermitage go to a bank liquidation sale situation at some point, is some of their lifts. That is much more plausible.

    Around the Valley, I have heard a number of people, "who heard from a friend of a friend of a friend who is the 2nd cousin twice removed from X at Peak" type rumors about Peak buying the Hermitage.... Nothing more concrete than that, and nothing like the multiple times that Peak management have said "no" when flat out asked if they're buying the Hermitage...

    We have heard all the same talk....but my point is...as a ski area its basically worthless.  The lifts and other skiing infrastructure that can be sold or moved are worth more than the area as a working entity.   I've skied there a few times and its ok but really doesn't stand out in the crowd here in the Valley.  Now that Magic is finally up and off terminal life support they've been garnering a lot more business. Bromley is our home area and has a super strong locals contingent that are really die hard.  Stratton continues to alienate locals with pricing and honestly marginal skiing.  
       What I see as a feasible plan is someone buys the place and sells off the infrastructure at a nice profit to a few local areas that thrive and could use better snow making and a new lift or two...IE bromley and Magic.  Making it part of MT Snow makes no sense to me.  Mt Snow is not well positioned to take on that massive headache....they've been there done that so to speak .
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 17

    DrJeff said:

    There has been rumors here in the valley of a Mt Snow take over.....however I callbjhhjl on that ever happening again.  Sadly Hermitage is worth more dead than alive as far as mechanical assets are concerned.  


    The actual Peak folks I've talked to, who are in somewhat of a position to be in the loop of the companies potential interest in the Hermitage Club and acquiring it, have been quite quick and decisive with a no answer (too much likely $$ for not enough return, too many permitting issues to connect them, not in the overall company strategy, etc) What Peak may have interest in, should The Hermitage go to a bank liquidation sale situation at some point, is some of their lifts. That is much more plausible.

    Around the Valley, I have heard a number of people, "who heard from a friend of a friend of a friend who is the 2nd cousin twice removed from X at Peak" type rumors about Peak buying the Hermitage.... Nothing more concrete than that, and nothing like the multiple times that Peak management have said "no" when flat out asked if they're buying the Hermitage...

    We have heard all the same talk....but my point is...as a ski area its basically worthless.  The lifts and other skiing infrastructure that can be sold or moved are worth more than the area as a working entity.   I've skied there a few times and its ok but really doesn't stand out in the crowd here in the Valley.  Now that Magic is finally up and off terminal life support they've been garnering a lot more business. Bromley is our home area and has a super strong locals contingent that are really die hard.  Stratton continues to alienate locals with pricing and honestly marginal skiing.  
       What I see as a feasible plan is someone buys the place and sells off the infrastructure at a nice profit to a few local areas that thrive and could use better snow making and a new lift or two...IE bromley and Magic.  Making it part of MT Snow makes no sense to me.  Mt Snow is not well positioned to take on that massive headache....they've been there done that so to speak .
    The 30 million dallar clubhouse would be tough to move. The 6 pack could be moved. What other assets could be moved? 

    I find it interesting that Stratton's pricing is alienating the locals. Ikon pass with unlimited access to Stratton is $899. Bromley's pass is $925. Lets see how loyal Bromley's locals are.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 22 Posts: 253
    Haystack just sucks. Boring terrain with short trails. With Mt. Snow right next door providing better terrain, Haystack will never be profitable. And, I make no mention of the inferior, graft ridden mgt team.
  • z1000307470z1000307470 advanced
    Posts: 142
    Bondman said:

    DrJeff said:

    There has been rumors here in the valley of a Mt Snow take over.....however I callbjhhjl on that ever happening again.  Sadly Hermitage is worth more dead than alive as far as mechanical assets are concerned.  


    The actual Peak folks I've talked to, who are in somewhat of a position to be in the loop of the companies potential interest in the Hermitage Club and acquiring it, have been quite quick and decisive with a no answer (too much likely $$ for not enough return, too many permitting issues to connect them, not in the overall company strategy, etc) What Peak may have interest in, should The Hermitage go to a bank liquidation sale situation at some point, is some of their lifts. That is much more plausible.

    Around the Valley, I have heard a number of people, "who heard from a friend of a friend of a friend who is the 2nd cousin twice removed from X at Peak" type rumors about Peak buying the Hermitage.... Nothing more concrete than that, and nothing like the multiple times that Peak management have said "no" when flat out asked if they're buying the Hermitage...

    We have heard all the same talk....but my point is...as a ski area its basically worthless.  The lifts and other skiing infrastructure that can be sold or moved are worth more than the area as a working entity.   I've skied there a few times and its ok but really doesn't stand out in the crowd here in the Valley.  Now that Magic is finally up and off terminal life support they've been garnering a lot more business. Bromley is our home area and has a super strong locals contingent that are really die hard.  Stratton continues to alienate locals with pricing and honestly marginal skiing.  
       What I see as a feasible plan is someone buys the place and sells off the infrastructure at a nice profit to a few local areas that thrive and could use better snow making and a new lift or two...IE bromley and Magic.  Making it part of MT Snow makes no sense to me.  Mt Snow is not well positioned to take on that massive headache....they've been there done that so to speak .
    The 30 million dallar clubhouse would be tough to move. The 6 pack could be moved. What other assets could be moved? 

    I find it interesting that Stratton's pricing is alienating the locals. Ikon pass with unlimited access to Stratton is $899. Bromley's pass is $925. Lets see how loyal Bromley's locals are.
    Bromley non-holiday season pass $475  - age 5 and up to adult
    Stratton non-holiday season pass $449 over age 18, $349 ages 5-18.
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 1,102
    Haystack has 1 CTEC triple, 1 Poma triple, and 2 Sky-Trac quads in addition to the bubble six-pack.  They also have a large fan gun fleet.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 17
    obienick said:

    Haystack has 1 CTEC triple, 1 Poma triple, and 2 Sky-Trac quads in addition to the bubble six-pack.  They also have a large fan gun fleet.

    The triples are too old to move. The quads are short. The residual value of all that equipement is peanuts when you have a 30 million dollar clubhouse that can't move. Haystack mountain will operate as a private club. 
  • Dirk109Dirk109 novice
    Posts: 13


    Not to change the subject, but I think Magic is a bigger
    problem for Bromley than Stratton. I skied both quite a few times this year,
    and there were more “locals” at Magic then Bromley. When Magic get JISP &
    Innkeepers up and running it could spell trouble for midweek Bromley.





  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 1,135
    I doubt Bromley or Stratton worry much about Magic, much as I am sure Sugarbush is not concerned about Mad River. Different clientele, different experience, all good for the region.

    Haystack used to be a fun little area when it was Haystack, though it struggled in the shadow of Mt. Snow. 

    Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 1,102
    Bondman said:

    obienick said:

    Haystack has 1 CTEC triple, 1 Poma triple, and 2 Sky-Trac quads in addition to the bubble six-pack.  They also have a large fan gun fleet.

    The triples are too old to move. The quads are short. The residual value of all that equipement is peanuts when you have a 30 million dollar clubhouse that can't move. Haystack mountain will operate as a private club. 
    Tell that to Pats who bought similar-era FG lifts from Ascutney, and I can think of several ski areas that can use brand-new short lifts.
  • jaytremjaytrem advanced
    Posts: 170
    obienick said:

    Bondman said:

    obienick said:

    Haystack has 1 CTEC triple, 1 Poma triple, and 2 Sky-Trac quads in addition to the bubble six-pack.  They also have a large fan gun fleet.

    The triples are too old to move. The quads are short. The residual value of all that equipement is peanuts when you have a 30 million dollar clubhouse that can't move. Haystack mountain will operate as a private club. 
    Tell that to Pats who bought similar-era FG lifts from Ascutney, and I can think of several ski areas that can use brand-new short lifts.
    Not to mention West Mountain just bought the other triple that was the same age a couple years ago.  Witches is a bit newer also.
  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 921
    So the $1,000,000 question is will the club members be able to save the place and keep it running?

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • mtsnow123mtsnow123 advanced
    Posts: 420
    sugarloaf said:

    So the $1,000,000 question is will the club members be able to save the place and keep it running?

    I would think that the customers have the money to do so, but will they do it? If I were near retirement and had a boat load of money, and hopefully some ski area management skills, seems like a decent option.

    Coop owned?
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 421
    Could the get a partner to go in with them to stay alive. Like a 49 percent ownership offer?
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 421
    All those lifts would go fast at a reasonable price. They are in good shape. There isn't as many fixed grip lifts these days on the resale market.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 17
    If the 2 triples are such hot items , why didnt they sell when Haystack sat idle before it was sold to become a private club? Again, peanuts compared to the clubhouse. 
  • jaytremjaytrem advanced
    Posts: 170
    Bondman said:

    If the 2 triples are such hot items , why didnt they sell when Haystack sat idle before it was sold to become a private club? Again, peanuts compared to the clubhouse. 

    The new owners at the time were planning on reopening. Wouldn't make sense to sell your lifts. Took a while and a new player, but eventually they reopened all 3 triples. Was sold before they even started construction on the bubble.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 17
    I though that the resort was sold by mt. snow to the first guy that was going to turn it into a private club for 5 mil. That included lots of land, 3 triples and a baselodge and snowmaking compressors etc. That values those triples at virtually nothing. The bank is owed 17 mil. selling old lifts is not going to help.
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 421
    I don't think the lifts being sold is for anything but an auction for the creditors to try to get at least some of what is owed back to them
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 421
    They can also break down that lodge and sell toilets, doors, furniture, etc, and leave it a shell of luxury.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 24 Posts: 253
    It's amazing to me how many wealthy (and presumably intelligent) people were taken advantage of by the Hermitage mgt team.
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 379
    marcski said:

    It's amazing to me how many wealthy (and presumably intelligent) people were taken advantage of by the Hermitage mgt team.

    Up until recently, Jim Barnes delivered to the members what he told them he would. First rate facilities. Little, if any liftlines. Great service to the members. Real estate options. Year round options, etc.

    Jim Barnes is a very good salesman, and the passion and enthusiasm for this project as it was getting going was contagious. Only in the more recent past did the financial liabilities come to light.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    Posts: 253
    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 17
    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
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