True length of trails

NELSAP

Have you ever noticed when a ski area claims a trail to be "3 miles long" or "1 mile long", but its actually quite a bit shorter than that? We know that verticals are often rounded up, but share some examples of trails that are shorter than advertised. Use Google Earth to help you measure.

ciscokid

Well my favorite Green Trail in the east for sure is a two and three-quarter mile long greeny at wildcat, they could've rounded it to 3 miles but I'm gonna buy into the fact that it's 2 3/4 mile long

NELSAP

I just measured Polecat and got 2 1/4 mile long.

ski_it

Hmmm, do they say PC is 2 3/4 or the longest run is 2 3/4? What if u go down Polecat to Catnap back to Polecat and then finally to Straycat?

4aprice

Isn't Chilcoot on Madonna Mountain 2 1/2 - 3 miles T2B ?  It was cut as a downhill, which is almost laughable now, with the FIS  rules on trail width etc.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

mapnut

That reminds me, the World Cup downhill held at Sugarloaf in 197? was said to be a bit short. The Narrow Gauge run scales about 9,100 feet on the topo (calculating the hypotenuse) and 2,400 vertical feet. IIRC the winning times were about 1:30. Bill29? (he was there.)

NELSAP

Using Chilcoot, Ruthie's, Curleys Cutback, and Meadowlark, the run is 3 miles long at Smuggs.

Bill29

Yeah, I was there. I remember the bottom of the course being kind of flat for a downhill, so they built in several rolls in the approach to the finish line.Skiers did a lot of leg pumping and knee bending to keep their skis on the snow. The winner, an Italian whose name I can't remember, said he liked the course and thought it was fair. (Winners always say that). He was asked what he thought about when he looked at the countryside around Sugarloaf, "Lupo," (wolves) he said.
A minute 30 seconds indicates a short court course, I'm told. I was at Heavenly Valley at a U.S. Ski Writers annual meeting and the downhill  (World Cup race, I think) was shortened by almost a third because of lack of snow. Franz Klammer finished sixth and was really upset. "It's a sh*t downhill," he said.
I talked to him after the race and said something diplomatic, like it's the same course for everybody, so what the hell is the problem? (I guess that's why we in the media are loved and respected so much). He said a short downhill doesn't allow enough time for the less talented skiers to make mistakes so it's not a real test. Those Austrians don't like to lose..

rickbolger

Bill29 said:

The winner, an Italian whose name I can't remember, said he liked the course and thought it was fair. (Winners always say that). He was asked what he thought about when he looked at the countryside around Sugarloaf, "Lupo," (wolves) he said.

1971 winner of the downhill on the second day was Italian Stefani Anzi. Previous day DH won by Bernhard Russi

Annemarie Moser Proell won both ladies downhills

ski_it

ski_it said:

Hmmm, do they say PC is 2 3/4 or the longest run is 2 3/4? What if u go down Polecat to Catnap back to Polecat and then finally to Straycat?

You are right they say Polecat 2 3/4 miles. Of course they say in the same 60th anniversary brochure that there is 2112 ft vertical of skiing and that the detachable quad installed in 1997 rises 2041 vertical feet. I don't know where that other 71 ft comes from. The D summit is at 4062' not the top of the lift.    

bmwskier

I may be overcomplicating this, but does Google Earth take into context that the length of a trail is a three dimensional measurement, using the Pythagorean Theorem? A would be the difference between the base elevation of the trail to the beginning, B would be the horizontal difference between the base and the start while C would be the actual length of the trail. 

mapnut

For a typical novice trail with a grade of 14% (i.e. Polecat), the difference between the base (map scale) and the hypotenuse is 2%. In other words if you scaled Polecat on a map at 2.75 miles, it's actually 2.805.

For an intermediate trail with a grade of 25% it's 6.25%.

For an expert trail with a 33% grade it's 11%. There, now you don't have to do the Pythagorus.

lotsoskiing

mapnut said:

For a typical novice trail with a grade of 14% (i.e. Polecat), the difference between the base (map scale) and the hypotenuse is 2%. In other words if you scaled Polecat on a map at 2.75 miles, it's actually 2.805.

For an intermediate trail with a grade of 25% it's 6.25%.

For an expert trail with a 33% grade it's 11%. There, now you don't have to do the Pythagorus.

So does GE do the math or if you trace a line along the trail does it just do horizonal length?

DrJeff

I do remember that the original Juggernaut at KIllington, when they first cut it and it went from the top of K peak all the way down to the old sunrise base, was listed at 10 miles long.  Skiing it the first season it was open with my parents and my brother, we felt that 10 miles must of been a gross exaggeration as it felt more like it was about 100 miles long with how long it took to ski (or more accurately often skate/pole) it, and then get back up to the top of K Peak!!  That 1 run and then return lifts to the top, was literally a half a day event!!  ;))

Cannonball

lotsoskiing said:

mapnut said:

So does GE do the math or if you trace a line along the trail does it just do horizonal length?

GE does not do the math.  GE only gives you flat, horizontal length. It does not take into account elevation.   

You can test this for yourself by measuring something really steep (like Half Dome).

obienick

Google Earth does give you the ground length, but only for straight lines, not paths.

NELSAP

You should be able to do paths in the measuring tool in google earth.

obienick

The path tool doesn't give you ground length like the straight line tool does.

NELSAP

If you click on "show elevation profile" it shows the path length too.

ciscokid

mapnut said:

For a typical novice trail with a grade of 14% (i.e. Polecat), the difference between the base (map scale) and the hypotenuse is 2%. In other words if you scaled Polecat on a map at 2.75 miles, it's actually 2.805.

For an intermediate trail with a grade of 25% it's 6.25%.

For an expert trail with a 33% grade it's 11%. There, now you don't have to do the Pythagorus.

Ok Mapnut, w all this science what is the
longest actual trail length in the Midwest? Just curious if there's one over a mile actual

Hilda's hideaway or Cold spring at Boyne mtn?

ski_it

Ok for what it's worth on my last trip I skied almost the exact Polecat trail except I cut one of those short corners which might add .05. Ski tracks reports 2.28 and 2.34 miles. One run I went around that upper island, so the difference makes sense. I also go straight down thru those baby moguls so you could add maybe another.05.
Checked some previous seasons and they are the exact route, 2.41 & 2.55 miles.
Oh look below it reports the exact vertical of the lift 2041 per their literature.

ski_it