Waterville Valley Green Peak

in NELSAP Forum Posts: 1,738
World Cup Triple Being Disassembled at Waterville Valley

The chairlift is expected to be reinstalled as part of the Green Peak expansion.

Monday, June 27, 2016, NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com


Disassembling of the World Cup Triple has commenced as Waterville Valley takes another step toward its long awaited Green Peak expansion.

The modified Green Peak Phase 1 was approved by the United States Forest Service in early 2015, after which initial lift line survey cutting was conducted. As of June 2016, no additional lift line or trail clearing has taken place.

Green Peak Phase 1 is expected to include 8 trails and 12 acres of glades serviced by a refurbished 4,380 feet long by 1,011 foot vertical World Cup triple chairlift. It is not known when the lift will be reinstalled.

Originally installed in 1985, the Albertsson-Stadeli brand lift was soon overshadowed by the installation of a high speed quad adjacent to it in 1988. The triple was rebuilt with a new Doppelmayr terminal in 2000 following a lighting strike. In recent years, the lift has seldom operated. While no replacement is expected, a second T-Bar has been discussed to serve the upper portion of the racing terrain accessed from the triple.

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=451
- Sam
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Comments

  • obienickobienick expert
    edited June 2016 Posts: 759
    An expansion, immediately next to a HSQ, with a lift line that is longer than the HSQ.....  

    This has got to be the stupidest lift move/expansion ever.  No one will ever ski the new terrain off its top.  The only trail that will get any appreciable use is the one parallel to South Street/Stillness/Lower Stillness. 

    Without a HSQ, the expansion will simply be a drain on labor and limited snowmaking resources.  The triple most likely won't operate mid-week, so there will be an Ascutney-esqe vibe of "can't get to that summit" for midweek skiers.  The only way to guarantee use (especially midweek) is to operate the triple over the Quadzilla.  But that's probably worse for PR as customers don't want to see a closed HSQ.
  • riverc0ilriverc0il advanced
    Posts: 221
    Why wouldn't the Green Peak triple operate mid-week? Do you have any basis on which to suggest that? 

    I would imagine the overall effect would be that all lines should be shorter if they take a lift that didn't spin much before and start spinning it regularly and send it to a new "peak" with additional terrain. That should mean skiers get more spread out and lowers the density and decreases wait times except for peak periods when the WCT was actually in use.

    Though perhaps you've read or heard something specific about the Green Peak chair not running mid-week? I don't think that would make much sense to not spin it mid-week.

    I think the bigger issue is the whole expansion in the first place. Waterville has atrociously dated infrastructure from the lodge to the lifts. I skied there once in 2015 and I was just stunned how dated the place feels. Instead of fixing their infrastructure, they are expanded to a minor peak and talking about a gondola to service the village. The place feels really run down and doesn't feel like as big of a resort as it actually is... 
  • mapnutmapnut expert
    edited June 2016 Posts: 699

    For a long time I've thought that Green Peak was exactly what Waterville needs terrain-wise. They have very little in the difficulty range between Valley Run and the blues off White Peak. That's a problem when improving beginners want to ski something a bit more challenging than Valley Run. The pitch of Green Peak is perfect.

    Of course more expert trails would be good too. And a new base lodge.

  • ski_itski_it expert
    Posts: 1,484
    riverc0il said:

    Why wouldn't the Green Peak triple operate mid-week? Do you have any basis on which to suggest that? 

    I would imagine the overall effect would be that all lines should be shorter if they take a lift that didn't spin much before and start spinning it regularly and send it to a new "peak" with additional terrain.
    I think you have a valid viewpoint, but in my WV experiences they tend to not run a lot of chairs if they can get way with it. The Northside Double never seems to run when I'm there and I've seen huge crowds at the White Peaks chair and they still don't fire up the triple. Years ago I was there mid-week and they had 3 or 4 lifts shutdown. I actually went in to complain and they told me they didn't have people to run it. And to shut me up they asked if I wanted to run it. I answered, "Sure".

    I was actually quite impressed with Crotched & Nashoba last year. It was mid-week, with hardly anyone there and they ran every single chair & lift. Both could certainly get away without running some chairs as you can access almost all the terrain from 1 or 2 main chairs. 
    ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
  • MrMagicMrMagic advanced
    Posts: 109
    I too echo riverc0il observations the place feels dated I recall the summit double (high country) running on diesel the wind was just right on one occasion and we were getting covered with exhaust. I have a map from 68 with a map of a village to ski area lift. To me I wouldn't waste money on a few trails and a 1 k vertical drop I would be doing some improvement to what I all ready had
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,470
    Whenever we do a thread on the best areas in NH, Waterville is usually at or near the bottom of the list among the 1000' plus vertical drop areas.

    While aging infrastructure is certainly a problem, the absence of glades and advanced terrain has always kept me away.
  • TomWhiteTomWhite advanced
    Posts: 332

    I too think WV lacks advanced terrain. Expansion to Mt. Tecumseh would add a little vertical and real advanced terrain. It has been considered but apparently died.

    http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/watervillevalley/mttecumseh.php

  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 1,470
    TomWhite said:

    I too think WV lacks advanced terrain. Expansion to Mt. Tecumseh would add a little vertical and real advanced terrain. It has been considered but apparently died.

    http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/watervillevalley/mttecumseh.php

    While this expansion would help, that would require big bucks. It is not costly to glade out existing terrain.  The last time I was at Waterville, it was apparent that even the minimal glades that existed had not been cared for and large fallen limbs had not been removed.
  • xlr8rxlr8r intermediate
    Posts: 29
    Aren't The Sununu's just trying to offload WV as they have run out of operating capital basically.  The place has been run into the ground by first Booth Creek and now the Sununus.  Amazing how far WV has fallen over the last 20 years.  It used to be the big dog in NH now it is almost forgotten.  Lots of things need to be done to bring it back, but nobody has invested any money there since the early 90s.  At least it has a lot of potential with approved expansion land.  

    I don't think the lack of true expert terrain is the problem, but rather all the trails are bland as they are all too wide.  They are also too steep for true intermediates which Green Peak would help.  But lots of other little things are problematic like the lodge is outdated, the parking lot is one of the worst in NE (its a long uphill walk from the lower levels of the lot to the lifts), glades are terrible, and the summit double area is practically useless.  

    One thing that I think would help the mountain ski a lot bigger is to replace the summit and northside side doubles with a single lift (relocated World Cup triple would be fine) and maybe add one or two trails there.  The Green Peak expansion needs to be a HSQ.  Is there any way they could move Quadzilla to Green Peek and cut a green trail down to the top of Valley Run.  
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 759
    riverc0il said:

    Why wouldn't the Green Peak triple operate mid-week? Do you have any basis on which to suggest that? 


    As been pointed out above thread, midweek sees FG lift closures.  They aren't going to run a lift with no demand midweek. You can't deny the fact that no one will ski off the top.
  • obienickobienick expert
    edited June 2016 Posts: 759
    xlr8r said:

    Aren't The Sununu's just trying to offload WV as they have run out of operating capital basically.  The place has been run into the ground by first Booth Creek and now the Sununus.   

    Yes.  They allegedly let go of some key snowmaking/grooming people a couple years ago.  The only snowmaking investment in recent memory was funded by the academy.  Compare that to their competitors:  Cannon and Loon.  Both of those have also made more significant expansions.  And Tenney will be back from the dead as well with a fresh HKD system.
  • riverc0ilriverc0il advanced
    Posts: 221
    obienick said:

    riverc0il said:

    Why wouldn't the Green Peak triple operate mid-week? Do you have any basis on which to suggest that? 


    As been pointed out above thread, midweek sees FG lift closures.  They aren't going to run a lift with no demand midweek. You can't deny the fact that no one will ski off the top.
    The previously mentioned lift closures are for lifts that cover overlapping terrain whereas the new lift will access terrain that can only be skied from that specific lift. So unlike other lift closures, taking that lift offline would also decrease their trail count. 
  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 759
    If you can get most of the way there midweek, ski areas don't open the lift.  Greek doesn't open #2 midweek days (opens for night skiing) or #5 midweek days (no night skiing).  Titus doesn't open #8 (and I think #7 too) most midweek days.  Sunday River doesn't open Aurora or Oz most midweek days.  Bristol only opens one of their two HSQs (crossover from the base of the closed one is a bitch).  Etc. Etc.
  • hiemsmanhiemsman novice
    Posts: 7
    xlr8r said:

     Amazing how far WV has fallen over the last 20 years.  It used to be the big dog in NH now it is almost forgotten.  Lots of things need to be done to bring it back, but nobody has invested any money there since the early 90s.  At least it has a lot of potential with approved expansion land.  


    I don't think the lack of true expert terrain is the problem, but rather all the trails are bland as they are all too wide.  They are also too steep for true intermediates which Green Peak would help.  But lots of other little things are problematic like the lodge is outdated, the parking lot is one of the worst in NE (its a long uphill walk from the lower levels of the lot to the lifts), glades are terrible, and the summit double area is practically useless.  

    One thing that I think would help the mountain ski a lot bigger is to replace the summit and northside side doubles with a single lift (relocated World Cup triple would be fine) and maybe add one or two trails there.  The Green Peak expansion needs to be a HSQ.  Is there any way they could move Quadzilla to Green Peek and cut a green trail down to the top of Valley Run.  

    I concur with most of these points.  On the woods front, I've always thought that the triangle of woods between Psyched, Bobbys Run, and Valley Run have been underutilized.   Looking at the topo, it seems like you could put a solid woods run from Psyched Out down to where they (used to?) put the half pipe.  It's not huge, but it'd be an improvement with little capital required.  

    I don't think Waterville can ever fix their parking situation without some very expensive sitework.  When they run a shuttle to the lot it's better, though I don't recall them doing that outside of holiday weeks.  Compared with Loon (where you get sent far offsite if you're not one of the lucky ones to get in the main lot) or Cannon (where the Lot is across the street), I don't think it's terrible.   

    Per your point, I think their biggest weakness to attracting (spendy) families (beyond the parking situation is the lack of transitional beginner terrain, which this lift should (hopefully) address.  Going from Valley Run to spots served by the White Peak quad is pretty daunting to a beginner, but staying on Valley Run gets pretty boring.  Adding some North facing acreage with an existing lift seems like a relatively low risk investment compared to anything else...but I think they need to do a bit more in terms of advertising their brand and proximity to the city, especially with players like Ragged and Crotched infringing in the beginner segment and Cannon stealing the advanced skiers.  

  • bubblecufferbubblecuffer advanced
    Posts: 235
    In addition to the suggestions made previously, new trails off the Northside Double would augment an otherwise useless section of this resort, then replace it with a quad.
  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 32
    I rode my bike up there yesterday... like taking a trip back in time.  Not a lot of activity - it appeared that all of the chairs were off of the WC triple rope but the towers still had padding attached.  Riding by the parking lots reminded me of just how bad that whole thing is - even with the shuttle... when it's running.  

    I spent many years there as a regular - left about 5 years ago and haven't been back.  I wasn't even a little nostalgic riding through there yesterday.  There are SO many things that could be better there with the right approach but nobody seems particularly interested in fixing anything.  Current ownership came in and the first thing they did was remodel the bathrooms.  Good move.  After that?  Nothing.  Same old run down lodges, same old inadequate lifts.  But the eco friendly urinals really bring in the crowds, don't they?  

    I'm actually surprised they're still operating.  It must be the captive audience condo owners up there in the box canyon - otherwise most everyone would have voted with their feet by now.  I certainly did and I don't regret it one bit.


  • bubblecufferbubblecuffer advanced
    Posts: 235
    I gave up on WV years ago, like so many others, due to the fact it was always a mob scene and the terrain was the same as 50 years ago.  

    Is it crowded these days?  If the place is quiet on weekends, I'm happy to go back there and make the best of the stagnant trail layout.
  • mtsnow100mtsnow100 intermediate
    Posts: 20
    I went to WV once about 15 years ago... Was not impressed... Pretty boring terrain and it looked like it was 1975 there. I kept on telling my friend it is like Wachusett only a little bigger.....
  • ski_itski_it expert
    edited July 2016 Posts: 1,484
    Most if not all observations are spot on.
    Not very quiet on weekends. The White Peaks Quad is generally mobbed on weekends when I have been there, the Valley chair a little less so. If they opened up a couple more lifts it would help. I don't care if the lifts overlap some terrain because it would spread people out.

    http://www.snowjournal.com/discussion/545/waterville-sunday-1-31-2016#latest
    ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
  • ceoceo novice
    Posts: 14
    Yeah. last time I went to WV, which was probably 20 years ago, I was amazed that everything was pretty much exactly the same as when I skied there as a little kid with my family. (We went back once or twice when I was older.) The childcare was even in the same place as when I was a client. :-) 
  • TomWhiteTomWhite advanced
    Posts: 332
    Ropeway.net linked to the Globe then I checked the WV site and they had this. I couldn't remove background colors. The first paragraph says Green will open this season. Photos on their site don't indicate any work.

    Green Peak Expansion Updates

    Update: August 30, 2016


    Waterville Valley Resort Kicks Off
    Construction of the Green Peak Expansion

     WATERVILLE VALLEY, NH – Waterville Valley Resort announces today the start of the Green Peak Expansion project, scheduled to open for the 2016/17 Winter Season.  This first phase of the project will include the cutting of 10 new trails to provide 45 new acres of skiing and riding and will be serviced by a fixed grip chairlift.

    This will be Waterville Valley Resort’s biggest expansion project in more than 30 years.

    Jack Sanders, a longtime skier at Waterville Valley and attorney for the Resort said “I congratulate Chris Sununu, his leadership team and the management of Waterville Valley Holdings on launching the first expansion of the ski area. Chris Sununu is President of theownership group which is the fourth company to own Waterville Valley, but the first to expand the ski area.”  Sanders continued, “I have been skiing in Waterville Valley since Tom Corcoran developed it as a first class ski area and now with new leadership, the updated master plan is on the road to being fulfilled.  What is amazing is to see a ski area in New England invest on the heels of the winter we experienced with so little snow.”

     The expansion process has been very exciting for us internally,” said CEO Chris Sununu. “There’s been a lot of hard work done by members of our team and the U.S. Forest Service to make sure this project is a success.  We are especially excited to be partnering with local New Hampshire contractors for this project.”  M.E. Johnston Construction of Thornton, NH and Wade Reed Logging of Rumney will provide the site work while SkyTrans Manufacturing of Contoocook, NH will be installing the lift. 

    We are honored to be working with Waterville Valley Resort on the Green Peak expansion project,” said SkyTrans GM Rich Combs. “This project builds on our history together starting when O.D. Hopkins Associates, the predecessor to SkyTrans, who installed the very first lifts at Waterville Valley Resort, and the nearly 50 years of experience our company has gained since then in ski lift and amusement ride design and manufacture. We look forward to contributing to the success of this project, the future of Waterville Valley Resort, and New England Skiing.

    Skiers can stay up to date with continuing developments at www.waterville.com/green-peak-expansion or on www.facebook.com/wvresort.

  • ME2VTskierME2VTskier intermediate
    Posts: 78

  • ME2VTskierME2VTskier intermediate
    Posts: 78

     Waterville Valley, NH
    Waterville Valley Resort announces today the start of the Green Peak
    Expansion project, scheduled to open for the 2016/17 Winter Season.  This
    first phase of the project will include the cutting of 10 new trails to
    provide 45 new acres of skiing and riding and will be serviced by a
    fixed grip chairlift.

    This will be Waterville Valley Resort’s biggest expansion project in more than 30 years.

    Jack
    Sanders, a longtime skier at Waterville Valley and attorney for the
    Resort said “I congratulate Chris Sununu, his leadership team and the
    management of Waterville Valley Holdings on launching the first
    expansion of the ski area. Chris Sununu is President of theownership
    group which is the fourth company to own Waterville Valley, but the
    first to expand the ski area.”  Sanders
    continued, “I have been skiing in Waterville Valley since Tom Corcoran
    developed it as a first class ski area and now with new leadership, the
    updated master plan is on the road to being fulfilled.  What is amazing is to see a ski area in New England invest on the heels of the winter we experienced with so little snow.”

     The
    expansion process has been very exciting for us internally,” said CEO
    Chris Sununu. “There’s been a lot of hard work done by members of our
    team and the U.S. Forest Service to make sure this project is a success.  We are especially excited to be partnering with local New Hampshire contractors for this project.”  M.E.
    Johnston Construction of Thornton, NH and Wade Reed Logging of Rumney
    will provide the site work while SkyTrans Manufacturing of
    Contoocook, NH will be installing the lift. 

    We
    are honored to be working with Waterville Valley Resort on the Green
    Peak expansion project,” said SkyTrans GM Rich Combs. “This project
    builds on our history together starting when O.D. Hopkins Associates,
    the predecessor to SkyTrans, who installed the very first lifts at
    Waterville Valley Resort, and the nearly 50 years of experience our
    company has gained since then in ski lift and amusement ride design and
    manufacture. We look forward to contributing to the success of this
    project, the future of Waterville Valley Resort, and New England Skiing.

    Skiers can stay up to date with continuing developments at www.waterville.com/green-peak-expansion or on www.facebook.com/wvresort.

  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 32
    Good to see that Chrisis took time away from collaborating with alleged terrorists to make the announcement:

    Can't wait to see the trail names they pick...

  • obienickobienick expert
    edited August 2016 Posts: 759
    That hit piece is disgusting.  

    While federal officials raided the group in 2002 for suspected financing of money to terrorists, it has never been charged.

  • TomWhiteTomWhite advanced
    Posts: 332
    Here's the Liftblog article with a sketch.

    Waterville Valley’s Green Peak Expansion is a Go

    Waterville Valley will open new terrain for the first time in thirty years this winter, CEO Chris Sununu confirmed at a press conference this morning.  With $2 million in financing clearing just recently, SkyTrans Manufacturing will relocate the World Cup Triple this fall to serve the ten new trails on Green Peak.  The U.S. Forest Service approved the 45 acre expansion in 2013. In addition to managing Waterville Valley, Mr. Sununu is running for Governor of New Hampshire which could have something to do with the late-summer timing of the announcement.  He frequently cites his leadership and job creation at Waterville Valley on the campaign trail.

    Waterville2013_greenpeak_web_sm

    The Green Peak triple chair will rise 1,000 vertical feet and move up to 1,800 skiers per hour. SkyTrans, which specializes in refurbishing old lifts and relocating them to smaller ski resorts and amusement parks, has experience at Waterville.  SkyTrans General Manager Rich Combs told Ski Area Management, “this project builds on our history, starting when O.D. Hopkins Associates, the predecessor to SkyTrans, installed the very first lifts at Waterville Valley Resort.”  Those lifts were all built by Stadeli and the mountain still operates six of them!

    IMG_0093The World Cup Triple in 2012 after being re-built by Doppelmayr following a fire.

    The 1985 triple formerly known as World Cup has numerous Doppelmayr components thanks to a June 2000 lightning strike and fire. The bottom station building burned to the ground and the haul rope separated due to the heat.  Doppelmayr came in and replaced both stations and added a mid-station at the same time.  After the installation of the parallel White Peaks Express in 1988, World Cup only ran weekends and holidays and was removed this past June. The move to Green Peak comes sooner than many expected and the new lift and terrain will open sometime this winter.

  • bubblecufferbubblecuffer advanced
    Posts: 235

    Good to see that Chrisis took time away from collaborating with alleged terrorists to make the announcement:


    Can't wait to see the trail names they pick...

    I read the article and it is tripe.  Seems the investigation resulted in nothing and since the guy is in a sort of political race, the opposition is digging deep.  


  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 929
    Hey that's an editorial, isn't it?  No way that's written by a qualified journalist.  As an editorial, it's not great writing but it gets his point across, and that's what op/ed pieces are for.
  • becca_mbecca_m advanced
    Posts: 106
    Is it just me or does this look like more boring/wide/flat trails?????   I guess I don't get it - they already seem to have plenty of that.....as does NH.   I guess if they are going for the 2-5X/yr skier, the market seems to be saturated in NH - ?
  • timberleaftimberleaf intermediate
    Posts: 32
    OK, so nobody at the Union Leader is going to win the Pulitzer with that piece.  But still - it at least exposed the BS line about the "local control" of WV.  Not to mention showcasing the blatant state tax dodge.

    Like I've said before, I've been up there a few times this summer and the location is so beautiful that it's a crying shame that they can't make a go of it. But the infrastructure is positively awful and adding new terrain isn't going to change that.  Decades of deferred maintenance have come home to roost - if it weren't for the captive audience of condo owners up there, WV would have been on the NELSAP list a long time ago.  Save a spot for it - it's just a matter of time...
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