Brklynskier
Ok, It's New York, not New England, but it's a conversation starter for a r**ny day.
With Windham going super upscale, Hunter getting the stink eye from a lot of former patrons, Belleayre very busy and Plattekill now on everyone's radar, Could the Catskills support another ski area?
If yes, do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that still appears to be mowing it's trails ie. Scotch Valley (Deer Run), or Bobcat?
Do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that's grown in such as Bearpen or No Name (Roxbury)?
Do you start afresh and where?
Caveats: Highmont doesn' t count. Climate change should be considered.
Thoughts?
joshua_segal
Brklynskier;d-4137 wroteOk, It's New York, not New England, but it's a conversation starter for a r**ny day.
With Windham going super upscale, Hunter getting the stink eye from a lot of former patrons, Belleayre very busy and Plattekill now on everyone's radar, Could the Catskills support another ski area?
If yes, do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that still appears to be mowing it's trails ie. Scotch Valley (Deer Run), or Bobcat?
Do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that's grown in such as Bearpen or No Name (Roxbury)?
Do you start afresh and where?
Caveats: Highmont doesn' t count. Climate change should be considered.
Thoughts?
We're seeing the rain/snow line migrating north. I see better potential for some of the more northern mountains (i.e., Adirondacks) - perhaps Big Tupper, Hickory or Paleface.
NewEnglandSkier13
joshua_segal;c-62945 wroteBrklynskier;d-4137 wroteOk, It's New York, not New England, but it's a conversation starter for a r**ny day.
With Windham going super upscale, Hunter getting the stink eye from a lot of former patrons, Belleayre very busy and Plattekill now on everyone's radar, Could the Catskills support another ski area?
If yes, do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that still appears to be mowing it's trails ie. Scotch Valley (Deer Run), or Bobcat?
Do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that's grown in such as Bearpen or No Name (Roxbury)?
Do you start afresh and where?
Caveats: Highmont doesn' t count. Climate change should be considered.
Thoughts?
We're seeing the rain/snow line migrating north. I see better potential for some of the more northern mountains (i.e., Adirondacks) - perhaps Big Tupper, Hickory or Paleface.
Hickory is operating this season.
rgrwilco
Yes it can. But I think that will end up being plattekill if they end up pulling of the expansion lazlo talked about in the storm skiing podcast.
The Catskills have enough ski areas for people coming up from the thruway, and a larger plattekill would be an option for those coming from western NY, northern PA.
With the way the weather has been, I think plattekill is better situated for the future than the others.
The only other thing I can think of is alterra making a solid foothold in the catskills. Right now you have your two days at windham (for how long, who knows) but other than that, NYC, PA, and NJ have either blue or camelback in PA, or stratton as their closes ikon options. There wont be a new area built and I dont think the lost areas of the cats (other than maybe bearpen) would be big enough. Maybe the state gets out of the ski business and unloads belleayre to alterra.
skizilla
The way I see it the discussion could be can the area get more capacity and refined. In the case of highmount being opened and attached to Bellayre...yes tmrw. Plattekill Would also be a great option that needs more refinement and terrain too. I would nominate in a similar vein Brodie opening to make the area a destination. Sure jiminy is nice for a day but a J and B combo would be a solid three day destination area.
A Lot of the places you mention you already drive by established significantly places before you get there like Bobcat or Scotch. bear pen would be a heavy lift and there is enough there to do it but looking a its top map it looks limited to me width wise.
Petersburgh pass might be a great place to reopen as it is easy to get to.
Hickory could be great as well but you would have to fundamentally transform it with snowmaking and lift ..which i am cool with, Its got location but it needs some elevation.
West has location too it just needs twice as many trails.
Open cortina as a feeder low cost option maybe.
IBRAKEFORTBARS
Honestly, with its vertical, I'm wondering if Bobcat has the potential to become a player. Granted, it needs snowmaking and its two t-bars are two decades out of use. Is Andes, NY even decently accessible by the Catskills skiing crowd?
IBRAKE
Brklynskier
Bobcat was a fun mountain and yes, it would need a chair and snowmaking. IIRC it's far enough west that it gets the same lake effect snow that Plattekill gets. You do need to drive past Belleayre, and near Plattekill to get there. Both Margeretville and Delhi have been filling up with the Work from Home crowd so that would help.
I had forgotten about Cortina. It might work
For this exercise, I do want to stay close to the Catskills so west of the Hudson and south of Albany.
As I think about it, my questions are:
Has the post Covid influx of people to the area increased the survival chances of a rebooted small to medium area?
Has overcrowding at the pass accepting areas created an appetite for a less crowded, albeit smaller area?
Could a reboot of one of the smaller / medium areas survive on it's own or as part of the Indy pass?
If one of the passes, preferably Ikon were to build, or reopen a medium to larger area in the Cats, would they be successful? IMO that would be the only way to really draw significantly from the metro areas.
FWIW, Windham is dropping Ikon at the end of the season.
I grew up near Phila. so the creep of the rain snow line has killed the areas that I skied as a teen. I fear that the Pocono's ski areas days are numbered.
ciscokid
Never hurts to speculate and dream.
I lived the Catskill dream spending a day with the Bearpen original owners and that’s enough for me.
Sure wouldn’t mind seeing Bobcat joining Hickory back in black.
z1000307470
The Catskills could easily support another ski area. Bearpen would be the best choice due to size, natural snow, faces NNE, 1700ft base and almost 2000 foot vertical. It would easily pull big visit numbers.
Bobcat could replicate level of Plattekill's success with the right owner and a chairlift.
joshua_segal
NewEnglandSkier13;c-62948 wrotejoshua_segal;c-62945 wroteBrklynskier;d-4137 wroteOk, It's New York, not New England, but it's a conversation starter for a r**ny day.
With Windham going super upscale, Hunter getting the stink eye from a lot of former patrons, Belleayre very busy and Plattekill now on everyone's radar, Could the Catskills support another ski area?
If yes, do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that still appears to be mowing it's trails ie. Scotch Valley (Deer Run), or Bobcat?
Do you try and reopen a NYSAP area that's grown in such as Bearpen or No Name (Roxbury)?
Do you start afresh and where?
Caveats: Highmont doesn' t count. Climate change should be considered.
Thoughts?
We're seeing the rain/snow line migrating north. I see better potential for some of the more northern mountains (i.e., Adirondacks) - perhaps Big Tupper, Hickory or Paleface.
Hickory is operating this season.
I'll believe it when I see it. We've heard that for years, like we did Bobcat about 15-years ago. They need an owner willing to put in big bucks. That place has no chance without snowmaking and an aerial lift.
marcski
I do not see another Catskill ski area of any significant size being opened ever again. Bearpen and the entire Catskills just does not have enough consistent below freezing temperatures or snowfall to make it worth the investment to get one of the ski areas operating. It would require tens of millions worth of lifts and snowmaking investment let along being able to secure water rights in the Cats, when inconsistent weather (which is getting more unreliable and variable) will hamper operations going forward. Plus, ski areas no longer make their money from skiing operations; its real estate development, hotels, condos. With that said, we may and will see some feeder hills reopening, Holiday for one this season!
ADKskier
rgrwilco;c-62952 wroteYes it can. But I think that will end up being plattekill if they end up pulling of the expansion lazlo talked about in the storm skiing podcast.
The Catskills have enough ski areas for people coming up from the thruway, and a larger plattekill would be an option for those coming from western NY, northern PA.
With the way the weather has been, I think plattekill is better situated for the future than the others.
The only other thing I can think of is alterra making a solid foothold in the catskills. Right now you have your two days at windham (for how long, who knows) but other than that, NYC, PA, and NJ have either blue or camelback in PA, or stratton as their closes ikon options. There wont be a new area built and I dont think the lost areas of the cats (other than maybe bearpen) would be big enough. Maybe the state gets out of the ski business and unloads belleayre to alterra.
What do Vajtays have planned?
rgrwilco
ADKskier;c-62985 wrote[
What do Vajtays have planned?
A pretty sizable expansion which would bring the vert to around 1500 feet. I can’t remember the specifics.
tedede
When was the last time anyone invested significant money in the Catskills?
lotsoskiing
tedede;c-63026 wroteWhen was the last time anyone invested significant money in the Catskills?
Hunter and Windham seem to be spending pretty regularly, and Belleayre has the bottomless pit of NYS money
tedede
Belleayre is ORDA run. Of course they have all the money they want.
I'm talking about when the last time a significant private investment was made in the Catskills. Anything related to recreation or entertainment.
Brklynskier
rgrwilco;c-62989 wroteADKskier;c-62985 wrote[
What do Vajtays have planned?
A pretty sizable expansion which would bring the vert to around 1500 feet. I can’t remember the specifics.
They would basically move the base to below the snow making ponds and lower parking lot. They would need some OPM to do it.
Brklynskier
tedede;c-63028 wroteBelleayre is ORDA run.
I'm talking about when the last time a significant private investment was made in the Catskills. Anything related to recreation or entertainment.
Southern Catskills has Bethel Woods (NFP) and Legoland amongst a lot of smaller projects. Further north and far west of the Thruway, has seen some smaller projects, but nothing large
obienick
I’ve heard Platekill has a large expansion planned.
z1000307470
rgrwilco;c-62989 wroteADKskier;c-62985 wrote[
What do Vajtays have planned?
A pretty sizable expansion which would bring the vert to around 1500 feet. I can’t remember the specifics.
Plattekill might be 1000ft vert but is probably just under 1000ft vert. Top elevation is roughly 3320 ft above sea level (not 3500ft above sea level). The old T-bar was 950 ft vert and the bottom terminal of the double is the lowest point of the ski area. The double top terminal is not 150ft above the top of the t-bar. Maybe if you use the entire Plattekill property there might be 1100 ft vert.
The last farm .6 mile down Lower Meeker Hollow Rd from Plattekill base sits at 2000ft above sea level. This is a possible expansion point. It is below the Overlook trail. If that was the new base, the vertical of Plattekill would be a little over 1300ft.
