Corporate Skiing - Ruining the skiing experience / culture?

Beast Patroller

Very interesting article on what Epic & Ikon has or hasn't done to the skiing experience / culture.
Let's hear your thoughts!

https://snowbrains.com/did-vail-resorts-and-alterra-mountain-company-ruin-ski-culture-in-america/

joshua_segal

With almost every forum (including SJ) having a "Vail Sucks" thread, it seems that a significant minority of vocal skiers want to blame Vail and Bob Katz for every ill of the industry.

The industry faces huge problems:
A. Snowmaking:
1. Climate change putting much more requirements for snowmaking
2. Skier's unwillingness to ski on the "thin cover" stuff. Many areas won't even open trails with conditions that we considered to be "good" 50 years ago. Hence: Need more machine-made snow.
3. Overcrowding on weekends means that even if there is a major snowstorm, it only takes a day to "ski it in" requiring more snowmaking.
4. More slingshot weather with more freeze-thaw cycles puts additional demands on snowmaking even in a good winter.

B. Skier demands for expensive HS lifts
3. Few will tolerate rope tows and surface lifts
4. Some are even balking at FG aerial lifts

C. Demand for amenities:
1. No one wants to use outhouses
2. New facilities must be warm and comfortable

D. Grooming
1. With modern grooming equipment, we rarely have the "bad days"
2. Grooming equipment is both expensive to buy and expensive to operate.

E. Cost of Insurance
- Sunday vs. Stratton says it all.

The regional diversification of major corporations provides "corporate insurance" against a bad winter in one region which is offset by a good winter in other regions.

Collecting the season ticket fees before the season starts also guarantees cash flow regardless of what mother nature brings.

Put simply, it's no longer a world where skiers volunteer to run a community ski area - and where they do, they don't get the attendance that the "big boys" get and they don't have the funds to build "aerial lifts".

lotsoskiing

I am sad it is no longer viable to look at the weather and make the game-time decision to go skiing, based on weather or circumstance. You now have to either book in advance and hope it does not end up like this coming Wednesday, or have a Megaplex pass and hope the date is not blacked out, depending on what 'ski product' you bought months earlier.

NewEnglandSkier13

I think the comments made by Joshua and Lotsoskiing make a great opportunity for a case study showing how corporate skiing has impacted skiing in areas where they have saturated the market. While the comments they made may be true in a state like New Hampshire, they do not pertain much to a state such as Maine. I really enjoy being able to make my skiing decisions on the fly, thanks to Maine's affordable lift tickets and lack of corporate dynamic pricing. This isn't a freedom that I would have if I skied in NH.

Here are some statistics showing the difference:
- New Hampshire has 26 ski areas which are open to the public, and Maine has 20.
- Of those areas, New Hampshire has 9 that are corporately owned, and Maine has 4.
- In New Hampshire, there are 10 ski areas which charge more than $100 for a full priced weekend lift ticket, while there are only 3 ski areas in Maine which do.
- There are 19 ski areas in NH charging more than $50 for a lift ticket, compared to 8 in Maine.
- In NH there are 7 ski areas which are operated by non-profits and heavily rely on volunteers, while Maine has 11.
- Of those non-profit ski areas, only 1 in NH has an aerial lift, compared to 3 in Maine, including one which will be installing a new chairlift this coming summer.

lotsoskiing

NewEnglandSkier13;c-63248 wroteI think the comments made by Joshua and Lotsoskiing make a great opportunity for a case study showing how corporate skiing has impacted skiing in areas where they have saturated the market. While the comments they made may be true in a state like New Hampshire, they do not pertain much to a state such as Maine. I really enjoy being able to make my skiing decisions on the fly, thanks to Maine's affordable lift tickets and lack of corporate dynamic pricing. This isn't a freedom that I would have if I skied in NH.

Here are some statistics showing the difference:
- New Hampshire has 26 ski areas which are open to the public, and Maine has 20.
- Of those areas, New Hampshire has 9 that are corporately owned, and Maine has 4.
- In New Hampshire, there are 10 ski areas which charge more than $100 for a full priced weekend lift ticket, while there are only 3 ski areas in Maine which do.
- There are 19 ski areas in NH charging more than $50 for a lift ticket, compared to 8 in Maine.
- In NH there are 7 ski areas which are operated by non-profits and heavily rely on volunteers, while Maine has 11.
- Of those non-profit ski areas, only 1 in NH has an aerial lift, compared to 3 in Maine, including one which will be installing a new chairlift this coming summer.

Great point. I should have added that this is a great case for going to the little areas many of us champion. NE Slopes, Oak (in NY), LV in Maine, and larger ones like Midd in VT. Not that I ever needed a reason to go to those places, but now that I will probably never ski any of the big places (unless I get a megapass), that's where I will put down my money.

riverc0il

That article is about 20-30 years too late. I cannot tell you how many books were published about how ASC and other big corps were ruining ski culture back then. The ski bum left town and got replaced via foreign visa workers a long time ago.

Not that the trend doesn't continue. But the whole "big corps changing things" ship has already sailed. Things have progressed a bit, sure. But Epic and Ikon did not change things that much... unless your favorite resort got added (i.e. local vs global changes).

If things really sucked that bad, people would stop buying Epics and Ikons and put their money where their mouths are. Most people's money is in wanting the stuff Joshua notes above. There are other options, most people don't take door number two, because they don't want a no frills experience.

At my favorite skiing locations, I haven't noticed much change since Epic and Ikon came on the scene.

lotsoskiing;c-63246 wroteI am sad it is no longer viable to look at the weather and make the game-time decision to go skiing, based on weather or circumstance. You now have to either book in advance and hope it does not end up like this coming Wednesday, or have a Megaplex pass and hope the date is not blacked out, depending on what 'ski product' you bought months earlier.

You can still make "day of" decisions. You just cannot choose any resort. If you pre-purchase multi-pack tickets to various areas and/or get the Indy... you can at least choose a region on the "day of". I spent the last dozen or so years not having a resort specific pass (Indy last few years, back at Jay this year though).

It requires some strategizing and advanced ticket buying, but it isn't hard. It is not something that Joe Average Skier knows how to do though.

JimK

Good discussion and I agree with many comments. The article raised some universal truths, but devolved into a "save the ski bum" whine. I couldn't care less about ski bums and their culture, even though I like to think of myself as a geezer ski bum, except I got a pension ;) As RiverCoil said the article overlooked the foreign worker culture that has replaced ski bums. A number of resorts are building special housing dedicated for those folks.
Change is inevitable and many often don't like it. The megapasses are a big change. Personally, I'm having a ball with them and get to ski all around North America. Have tried Epic, Ikon and MCP at various times, currently an Ikon guy. But I like little ski areas too and there are still ways to keep things cheap. Next week I'm going to ski Monarch, CO for free (age70+) for a few days and stay off mtn in a motel for $59 per night.
The author of the article tried to add some bite with the closing sentence, but getting up early is half the battle in UT right now. I ski Snowbird about 30 times a winter and arriving by 815AM solves the traffic and parking (still free and often slopeside) issues about 25 of those days. Leaving at 2PM helps as well. And bringing my own sandwich cuts out the high cost of chicken tenders :)

newpylong

lotsoskiing;c-63246 wroteI am sad it is no longer viable to look at the weather and make the game-time decision to go skiing, based on weather or circumstance. You now have to either book in advance and hope it does not end up like this coming Wednesday, or have a Megaplex pass and hope the date is not blacked out, depending on what 'ski product' you bought months earlier.

I echo this 100%. I am extremely lucky that there are a good half dozen smaller to mid size areas near me that charge the same for the walk up rate or minimally more.

Beast Patroller

Glad to see the constructive comments posted here. While I'm not a fan of Vail/Epic and have made this known in the past I have seen some good things occur.

Speaking from my experiences, they really screwed up during the first winter of COVID by not refunding or rolling over passes to those who couldn't use them. The other mega passes did and even smaller (independent) areas did. Then next year, they started charging to park at Mount Snow which made matters worse. Sure it was great to get a season pass so cheap but by the time you were done paying to park all winter, that pass cost double.

We use to only have overcrowding during the Christmas holidays, MLK, President's week, & event weekends before Vail took over, but their cheap passes made the issue worse by having the crowds every weekend hence the decision to charge for parking. Along with the crowded mountains came the "entitled attitudes" and lack of respect for the responsibility code. This made the trails more dangerous and the fact that patrol & mountain management don't enforce the code compounds the issue.

The good things that have come with these mega passes is the chance to ski a lot of areas throughout the country and the world. I for one don't benefit from this opportunity as we tend to ski at a couple of areas plus we have a home near Mount Snow but for those who do, it's great. The other good I've seen from these passes is the corporations are spending money installing new lifts and other capital improvement to areas that really need them.

While my wife & I don't have an Epic pass or currently ski at Mount Snow, we plan to try it again in a year or two when I retire. We'll give the midweek a try and hope it's much better than weekends there. If not, we're going to continue skiing at Indy mountains where the experience is like what skiing use to & should be.

In conclusion, the opinion on whether these mega passes are good or bad depends on the person you're talking to but I feel they have created a negative change to the sport.

tedede

@joshua_segal I love how you consider indoor plumbing and heating amenities :)

I would definitely love to see Vail raise prices. The crowds and the lack of respect for the other skiers has become more apparent at Crotched this year.

joshua_segal

tedede;c-63264 wrote@joshua_segal I love how you consider indoor plumbing and heating amenities :)

...

I guess that shows just how old-school I am!

Beast Patroller

tedede;c-63264 wrote@joshua_segal I love how you consider indoor plumbing and heating amenities :)

I would definitely love to see Vail raise prices. The crowds and the lack of respect for the other skiers has become more apparent at Crotched this year.

That's too bad! Unfortunately, unless resorts start stepping up enforcement of the responsibility code the bad behavior is going to get worse. I too would rather see the prices go up to a level that turns the crowds away so we can start to enjoy the mountains like we use to.

snowphoenix

Great comments in this thread so far. I second a lot of @joshua_segal's, @riverc0il's and @Beast Patroller's points.

With regard to the original question posed in this thread, here is my personal pros and cons list for the corporatization of skiing:

Pros:

Most mega-passes tend to be decently good deals if one uses them for a good number of days in a season
Mega-passes encourage skiers to explore more areas than they might otherwise frequent (as Beast Patroller stated)
Ski areas receive needed infrastructure upgrades thanks to being part of a larger corporate entity (e.g. Mountaineer lift at Attitash)
"Corporate insurance" as Joshua mentioned

Cons:

More difficult to make a day-of decision of where to ski -- advance planning is now the norm
The revenue generated by an area often does not go into investments at that area but rather other destination area(s) owned by the same corporation
As many regions are now receiving lower snowfall than average, skiers from those regions choose to ski at more northern mountains that are on the same mega-pass, leading to crowds
Less transparent communication from corporate management
Understaffing at corporate-owned areas due to low wages (this problem may have been resolved but I remember hearing somewhere that Vail was only offering $15/hour for ski patrollers)
Ski areas whose revenue matters little to the corporation that owns them (i.e. "feeder areas") will have less money and effort put into their operations (I could be wrong, but it seems Wildcat has been much slower in opening terrain in the last few seasons than before)
Less visitation and revenue for independent areas as people coming from afar will ski at an area on their mega-pass instead
Not sure if this is a direct result of corporatization, but food and beverage prices at resorts have gotten very high recently

I agree that lack of responsibility code enforcement and general disregard for etiquette is a major problem faced by many ski areas today, especially the large ones that draw out-of-state crowds. I think raising prices, however, would run the risk of further contributing to the gentrification of the sport and price out locals (unless they were offered discounts). I would prefer if ticket sales were limited, though this would make it more difficult to make a spontaneous, day-of decision to ski at a given area.

I feel pretty neutral about the influx of foreign workers at the larger resorts in recent years (both corporate-owned and independent). I have nothing against friendly and hardworking people coming to the United States to work. If one desires to work at a ski area in order to ski for free or at a reduced rate, I believe there are plenty of smaller and/or independent mountains that could often use more staff.

As for the issue of paid parking, I personally have no problem parking in a more remote lot and walking to the lodge/slopes. However I do think that paid parking does little to reduce crowds on peak days and is mostly just an extra and unnecessary source of income for the big corporations, so I am not in favor of it.

Sorry for such a long post, for those that read to the end I hope it wasn't too exhausting!

JimK

snowphoenix;c-63268 wrote [*] Ski areas whose revenue matters little to the corporation that owns them (i.e. "feeder areas") will have less money and effort put into their operations (I could be wrong, but it seems Wildcat has been much slower in opening terrain in the last few seasons than before)
!

I'll say that 5 out of the 6 ski areas Vail purchased in recent years near the Mason-Dixon Line are much slower opening than they were before Vail. They've gone from some of the best run to worst run.

snowphoenix

JimK;c-63269 wrote
snowphoenix;c-63268 wrote [*] Ski areas whose revenue matters little to the corporation that owns them (i.e. "feeder areas") will have less money and effort put into their operations (I could be wrong, but it seems Wildcat has been much slower in opening terrain in the last few seasons than before)
!
I'll say that 5 out of the 6 ski areas Vail purchased in recent years near the Mason-Dixon Line are much slower opening than they were before Vail. They've gone from some of the best run to worst run.

Out of curiosity, which area is the exception?

JimK

The exception is Laurel Mtn, PA, only because it was a weak sister (infrastructure-wise) before they bought it and still is the weak sister. Nice ski area though when helped by Mother Nature.

Best/worst run needs qualifying. Liberty, Whitetail, Roundtop, Hidden Valley, Seven Springs are all pretty nice little mtns with good legacy infrastructure. It's just that they don't seem to crank the guns at every opportunity like they did before.

ADKskier

I wouldn't say they are ruining skiing culture or the industry they are just monopolizing it. Support the mom and pop places. Just in pass sales alone Epic made some 2.3 billion dollars. Meanwhile little mom and pop places are closing and they cant compete with that.

joshua_segal

Agree with "snowphoenix" that this is an excellent thread:

I'm not sure PA's difficulties may be more climate change related than Vail related.

I agree with several commenters on skier etiquette (or lack thereof).

True story: I was putting up a rope line to close a trail during operating hours. A guy skins by me. I said, "Excuse me sir. Uphilling is only allowed before the lifts open."

He replied, "I've been doing this for 19-years" and he continued up the hill.

I radioed the hill lead at top-shack and explained what was happening. I noted that if he had been polite, I probably would have let it go.

When I got back to the top, I asked the hill lead, "Did you see him and what did you do?"

He replied, "I saw him and did nothing. Did you notice that he was packing heat?"

This is what Patrol is up against.

-------

I could be wrong, but the quality of the product that CM continues to provide makes me think that the issue with regard to snowmaking, grooming and customer carre may be more related to the local management. I know our product has vastly improved now that we have a management team who appear to really like CM as opposed to merely collecting a paycheck.

snowphoenix's comment about salaries: Vail's minimum is $20 per hour. I don't begrudge the lift attendants and scanners their $20 per hour. But I question the fact that entry level skilled skiers with medical knowledge (i.e., patrollers) receive only 5% more for their skill. That being said, none of our patrol people that I know of on our patrol are depending on their skiing income to put food on their tables.

Beast Patroller notes, "I too would rather ... so we can start to enjoy the mountains like we use to."

My favorite run at CM is the Solstice Glade Trail. It's narrow and windy with no snowmaking. After yesterday's storm, it wasn't even open although any local knows how to get in without ducking a rope. Even with light traffic it was skied out in hours.

I also remember hour-long liftlines to ride fixed grip (slow) lifts.

No - I prefer today's product!

Beast Patroller

joshua_segal;c-63280 wroteAgree with "snowphoenix" that this is an excellent thread:

I agree with several commenters on skier etiquette (or lack thereof).

True story: I was putting up a rope line to close a trail during operating hours. A guy skins by me. I said, "Excuse me sir. Uphilling is only allowed before the lifts open."

He replied, "I've been doing this for 19-years" and he continued up the hill.

I radioed the hill lead at top-shack and explained what was happening. I noted that if he had been polite, I probably would have let it go.

When I got back to the top, I asked the hill lead, "Did you see him and what did you do?"

He replied, "I saw him and did nothing. Did you notice that he was packing heat?"

This is what Patrol is up against.

-------

snowphoenix's comment about salaries: Vail's minimum is $20 per hour. I don't begrudge the lift attendants and scanners their $20 per hour. But I question the fact that entry level skilled skiers with medical knowledge (i.e., patrollers) receive only 5% more for their skill. That being said, none of our patrol people that I know of on our patrol are depending on their skiing income to put food on their tables.

Beast Patroller notes, "I too would rather ... so we can start to enjoy the mountains like we use to."

No - I prefer today's product!

Personally I think part of the skier etiquette problems is due to the increases in skier traffic but mostly because of the change in the attitude of people overall.

Joshua, your story is very concerning and re-enforces the need to be careful when confronting people (in general). You did the right thing by letting him go and contacting you hill lead. The one thing I think should have been done was for your hill lead to radio down to mountain management and inform them of this guy carrying a firearm. I'm a gun owner but firearms have no business on a ski area during operations! Management should have contacted the police to further handle that situation.

"Vail's minimum is $20 per hour" Ha, I use to get paid $8.00 per hour back when I patrolled and that was only when I took a day off from work and pro-patrolled midweek. I certainly wasn't living on that salary and I can't see how any patroller can live on what they get paid today. I also don't understand why patrollers don't get paid more considering the training, physical requirements, & risk they endure in their day to day activities.

"Today's product" is nice but not for what we have loss because of it. The new lifts & expanded choices are good but we've loss the ability to go at a moments notice. the increase in skier traffic, and these corporations are nickel & diming us to death.

newpylong

The ability to wake up and depending on how one is feeling, how your kids are doing, etc and decide where to go and A) actually be able to get a ticket and B) not pay 2-3x the price of purchasing a month ago is what has ruined a lot of the fun of the sport for me. This was happening pre-COVID but that was the nail in the coffin. The fact that you cannot physically buy a ticket at a counter at Killington any longer is hard for me to comprehend. They have ticket agents but they are to help with special circumstances and to assist those with messed up online orders. It's just a way to squeeze more out of the customer. As I said, thankfully there are plenty of small to medium hills near me that this is not an issue at. This year was the first in nearly a decade that I didn't pull the trigger on a Ragged pass (just using my wife's Buddy day tickets comboed with NH discounts) and yesterday (their arguably busiest day of the year) my friend and I walked into customer service and got our NH day ticket in person, no problem. The hassle that the conglomerates are pushing onto the consumers has surely raised visitation at areas like that based on what I see.