Saddleback aims to open

joshua_segal

It does appear that they are moving forward. An order has been place with Dopplmayer for HSQ and they've hired someone knowledgeable to check out the condition of the current snowmaking system. So things really do seem to be moving forward.

slatham

I see both sides of the HSQ/FGQ argument, and I do worry of an Ascutney situation. BUT if you want to draw down state/region urbanites to the cold reaches of Northern Maine, you best have a HSQ to lessen the time exposed to the elements. The masses want quick lifts, especially if it’s cold (if not brutally cold).

NewEnglandSkier13

slatham;c-40344 wroteI see both sides of the HSQ/FGQ argument, and I do worry of an Ascutney situation. BUT if you want to draw down state/region urbanites to the cold reaches of Northern Maine, you best have a HSQ to lessen the time exposed to the elements. The masses want quick lifts, especially if it’s cold (if not brutally cold).

Hardly northern Maine...

I can't see how two large competing ski areas can work in the long run so far from large population bases.

sugarloaf

NewEnglandSkier13;c-40346 wrote
slatham;c-40344 wroteI see both sides of the HSQ/FGQ argument, and I do worry of an Ascutney situation. BUT if you want to draw down state/region urbanites to the cold reaches of Northern Maine, you best have a HSQ to lessen the time exposed to the elements. The masses want quick lifts, especially if it’s cold (if not brutally cold).
Hardly northern Maine...

I can't see how two large competing ski areas can work in the long run so far from large population bases.

Saddleback and Sugarloaf don't compete with one another. Sugarloaf is a destination resort, Saddleback is a day trip area from S. Maine and Boston area. Sugarloaf has a slope-side bed capacity of 8,000 vs 700 at Saddleback. You have a complete village at Sugarloaf and a few condos at Saddleback.

The limited lodging capacity in Rangely is occupied by snowmobilers in the Winter, not a problem at Sugarloaf. Unfortunately the Berry's never followed through with development plans for a village, hotel and inn. This was in the master plan from the mid-2000's. The lack of lodging is a big reason why the place doesn't make money and was abandoned for several years.

Chuckstah

Day trip from Boston area? No. I did it once to Sugarloaf to see a friend compete in an Olympic level event. Never again, it's not day trip range from the Boston area. That said, I hope this rebirth is successful

sugarloaf

Chuckstah;c-40348 wroteDay trip from Boston area? No. I did it once to Sugarloaf to see a friend compete in an Olympic level event. Never again, it's not day trip range from the Boston area. That said, I hope this rebirth is successful

I didn't mean Boston itself, but the N. Massachusetts, and Portsmouth, Portland area. I used to do Sugarloaf from NYC for ski vacations.

Chuckstah

Understood. I now live in Southern NH, and it's about 4 hours. Same as when I lived in MA. It's about the only area I won't day trip in all of New England. But again, I'm really looking forward to getting some turns there next season. I hope there is affordable lodging.

sugarloaf

I'm also hoping that the new owners keep lift ticket prices reasonable. They should be priced lower than Sugarloaf to attract day customers. Part of the reason we skied there was due to the low ticket prices. The place wasn't in the best condition in the 1990's until 2004, when the Berry's invested alot of money.

Chuckstah

100 percent agree. They need cheap tickets and passes, at least to start, to gain some market share. I think they should get on one of the multi passes. Indy pass?

NewEnglandSkier13

HSQ, mountain bike trails, etc. sounds like expensive tickets and that they are trying to compete with Sugarloaf.

riverc0il

sugarloaf;c-40349 wroteI didn't mean Boston itself, but the N. Massachusetts, and Portsmouth, Portland area. I used to do Sugarloaf from NYC for ski vacations.

Saddleback is over 3.5 hours from Newburyport, the closest MA city. For some perspective, that is about the same time as Jay from Boston. Portsmouth is a bit closer but still over 3 hours. That is outside of most people's day trip range. Portland is day tripable for sure. But most people that live in SoNH or MA will not find Saddleback day tripable.

sugarloaf

riverc0il;c-40355 wrote
sugarloaf;c-40349 wroteI didn't mean Boston itself, but the N. Massachusetts, and Portsmouth, Portland area. I used to do Sugarloaf from NYC for ski vacations.
Saddleback is over 3.5 hours from Newburyport, the closest MA city. For some perspective, that is about the same time as Jay from Boston. Portsmouth is a bit closer but still over 3 hours. That is outside of most people's day trip range. Portland is day tripable for sure. But most people that live in SoNH or MA will not find Saddleback day tripable.

A major reason why Saddleback struggles is the inability to attract people from the longer range markets. Rangely lodging can't handle thousands of skiers and snowmobilers. Once you're done skiing at Saddleback, it's a 7 mile drive into town for food and lodging. Except for condo's, there's nothing slope-side. At Sugarloaf, you can drive there and not need the car again once you are there if lodging locally.

I wish Saddleback all the best, but without additional slope-side lodging, this place won't succeed. At least not as a major destination resort.

joshua_segal

As this thread reaches 15 pages, we're starting to repeat a lot.

Bottom line:
SMF has run skier visits, potential revenues, etc. They have clearly shown:
a. There are not enough skiers to support two mega-areas in this region and Saddleback can't make it as Sugarloaf, Jr.
b. That's why serious investors, such as the big-3 (Vail, Alterra and Boyne) have all stayed away.
c. The last 3-owners have successively lost $1M, $8M and $40M. Why would Arctaris have greater success? Did they run the numbers or are they just spending other people's money?

At least for now, things are moving forward. But few for-profit businesses can make it long-term without turning a profit. While things look good now for an operational ski area, what will happen in 5-years?

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-40360 wroteAs this thread reaches 15 pages, we're starting to repeat a lot.

Bottom line:
SMF has run skier visits, potential revenues, etc. They have clearly shown:
a. There are not enough skiers to support two mega-areas in this region and Saddleback can't make it as Sugarloaf, Jr.
b. That's why serious investors, such as the big-3 (Vail, Alterra and Boyne) have all stayed away.
c. The last 3-owners have successively lost $1M, $8M and $40M. Why would Arctaris have greater success? Did they run the numbers or are they just spending other people's money?

At least for now, things are moving forward. But few for-profit businesses can make it long-term without turning a profit. While things look good now for an operational ski area, what will happen in 5-years?

The only possible way I could see them be successful is to operate as a non-profit, following a similar model that Black uses.

sugarloaf

Saddleback doesn't have to become a mega resort, just develop slope-side lodging other than a handful of condos. Nobody wants to drive a long distance and then not have slope-side lodging. Saddleback is a ghost town after 4pm. If folks want food and lodging, it's going into Rangely, not staying and spending money at Saddleback. A day trip destination far from anywhere doesn't work. You need alot of investment money to truly develop Saddleback into a successful business and these people don't have it.

I think that operating like Pico does, late week and weekends is the way to go. They won't have enough midweek business to remain profitable without anything to keep folks local.

TomWhite

This is a link to video (2 min.) of their 2/17 public announcement of the new HSQ:

joshua_segal

sugarloaf;c-40363 wrote …

I think that operating like Pico does, late week and weekends is the way to go. They won't have enough midweek business to remain profitable without anything to keep folks local.

Again, SMF ran the numbers. Non-holiday weekdays break even. Without a nearby alternative area (like Killington to Pico), not being open weekdays kills the tourist ski-week business and doesn't allow for full-time employment of mountain personnel.

joshua_segal

NewEnglandSkier13;c-40361 wrote
joshua_segal;c-40360 wroteAs this thread reaches 15 pages, we're starting to repeat a lot.

Bottom line:
SMF has run skier visits, potential revenues, etc. They have clearly shown:
a. There are not enough skiers to support two mega-areas in this region and Saddleback can't make it as Sugarloaf, Jr.
b. That's why serious investors, such as the big-3 (Vail, Alterra and Boyne) have all stayed away.
c. The last 3-owners have successively lost $1M, $8M and $40M. Why would Arctaris have greater success? Did they run the numbers or are they just spending other people's money?

At least for now, things are moving forward. But few for-profit businesses can make it long-term without turning a profit. While things look good now for an operational ski area, what will happen in 5-years?
The only possible way I could see them be successful is to operate as a non-profit, following a similar model that Black uses.

And that's what SMF concluded and they had the numbers to back it up. I think that in Maine, in addition to Black; Squaw, Camden and Ticomb all run as not-for-profits.

sugarloaf

joshua_segal;c-40366 wrote
sugarloaf;c-40363 wrote …

I think that operating like Pico does, late week and weekends is the way to go. They won't have enough midweek business to remain profitable without anything to keep folks local.

Again, SMF ran the numbers. Non-holiday weekdays break even. Without a nearby alternative area (like Killington to Pico), not being open weekdays kills the tourist ski-week business and doesn't allow for full-time employment of mountain personnel.

I doubt they break even midweek. I've skied there alot midweek for more than 20 years and it's deserted, especially late season. Running 5 lifts midweek with nobody there can't be profitable. This is also based on the cheap midweek tickets the Berry's offered. I agree that it's hard to keep full time workers running on a reduced schedule. That might make more sense in the shoulder seasons, early and late.

sugarloaf

I think developing snow tubing and maybe a resteraunt in the baselodge, would be a good way to generate more revenue.

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