Saddleback aims to open

riverc0il

joshua_segal;c-40366 wroteAgain, SMF ran the numbers. Non-holiday weekdays break even. Without a nearby alternative area (like Killington to Pico), not being open weekdays kills the tourist ski-week business and doesn't allow for full-time employment of mountain personnel.

The worker situation can't be overstated enough. I am not familiar with the job market in that neck of the woods. But around here (Lakes/SoWhites), it is difficult for employers to find enough employees, especially seasonal.

Magic makes the weekend only thing work. But on the flip side, they opted to purchase a used quad instead of a new HSQ and they have a long time loyal following and they are much closer to urban areas and day tripable from some of them.

sugarloaf

I guessing the era of cheap lift tickets is over. Looking back through my Saddleback brochures, they were charging $40 anytime in 2008 which increased to $59/$69 weekday and weekends for 2014-2015. There are very few area's that charge the same ticket price for midweek, weekends and holidays.

Midweek with 5 lifts running, grooming, and employees to pay, $40 doesn't do it. Especially for a remote place with very few midweek skiers. No wonder the Berry's lost so much money.

lotsoskiing

They have to use the weekend and holidays only model to get their feet under them. I know that makes it a challenge to find staff, but full-time operation will not work

joshua_segal

lotsoskiing;c-40385 wroteThey have to use the weekend and holidays only model to get their feet under them. I know that makes it a challenge to find staff, but full-time operation will not work

The numbers don't agree with you.

sugarloaf

joshua_segal;c-40390 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-40385 wroteThey have to use the weekend and holidays only model to get their feet under them. I know that makes it a challenge to find staff, but full-time operation will not work
The numbers don't agree with you.

The numbers are wrong. I have 20 plus years of experience skiing there midweek, it's deserted. At least not at the ticket prices the Berry's were charging. The Berry's brought skier visits way up from where it was, but I think they priced tickets too cheaply.

What ticket prices are they basing this on?

sugarloaf

With a HSQ going in this Summer, I'm wondering what ticket prices will be like next season. Alot of $$$$ will be spent just reserecting this place.

ME2VTskier

And to as far as hiring help... minimum wage is now $12hr in Maine.

conrad

NewEnglandSkier13;c-40361 wroteThe only possible way I could see them be successful is to operate as a non-profit, following a similar model that Black uses.

Or you can outsource almost all the investment costs and risk while keeping the profits.
Didn't realize that was possible until now.

joshua_segal

sugarloaf;c-40393 wrote
joshua_segal;c-40390 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-40385 wroteThey have to use the weekend and holidays only model to get their feet under them. I know that makes it a challenge to find staff, but full-time operation will not work
The numbers don't agree with you.
The numbers are wrong. I have 20 plus years of experience skiing there midweek, it's deserted. At least not at the ticket prices the Berry's were charging. The Berry's brought skier visits way up from where it was, but I think they priced tickets too cheaply.

What ticket prices are they basing this on?

The due-diligence research of SMF when they were researching the area as a not-for-profit. While there were many days that appear as you suggested, apparently there were enough good days sprinkled in. I don't remember exactly, but I think they analyzed 5-years of data.

BTW: I have no personal stake in SB. Just a lot of interest because of a close friend who does.

sugarloaf

I was shocked to see the 2008 brochure and $40 anytime lift ticket prices, yikes. That was the year they put in Kennebago Quad, probably spending several million dollars.

slatham

sugarloaf;c-40402 wroteI was shocked to see the 2008 brochure and $40 anytime lift ticket prices, yikes. That was the year they put in Kennebago Quad, probably spending several million dollars.

Yeah well look what happened.

z1000307470

They replaced the wrong lift.

sugarloaf

z1000307470;c-40408 wroteThey replaced the wrong lift.

Not only that, they never got around to replacing Rangely Chair when it obviously needed an upgrade. Long weekend lift lines for Rangely made alot of people not visit again.

joshua_segal

z1000307470;c-40408 wroteThey replaced the wrong lift.

We live in a world where snowboarders need to be accommodated. One had to be an expert boarder just to ride the Kennebago T-Bar.

sugarloaf

joshua_segal;c-40413 wrote
z1000307470;c-40408 wroteThey replaced the wrong lift.
We live in a world where snowboarders need to be accommodated. One had to be an expert boarder just to ride the Kennebago T-Bar.

And keeping snow on the T-Bar track was very difficult at the summit due to wind. My son road it at age 5.

NewEnglandSkier13

Part of the reason why this reopening is so strange is because it is being done in such a different way than any other areas in New England. Looking at how other areas have successfully reopened shows how different what they are proposing is.
- Magic: Reopened with original fixed-grip lifts. Later added more fixed-grip lifts.
- Ascutney: Reopened as non-profit with a rope tow. later added a T-bar.
- Tenney: Reopened with original fixed-grip lifts.
- Whaleback: Reopened with original fixed-grip lifts.
- Crotched: Reopened with a original lift and re-purposed lifts from other areas. later installed a high-speed lift.
- Granite Gorge: Reopened with a handle tow. Later installed a used double. Now back to just handle tow.
- Big Squaw: Reopened with a original lift on the lower mountain.

Saddleback is planning to reopen with a brand-new high speed lift. There is likely a reason this hasn't been done in the past, and I think it will be hard to make it work.

sugarloaf

The reason it wasn't replaced is because the Berry's didn't want to spend any more money on Saddleback. For better or worse, it was bought by a family with no ski area ownership experience. It wasn't managed properly and haphazardly expanded.

You have a high capacity Kennebago Quad, a high capacity South Branch Quad and a 50+ year old double chair in between servicing the main part of the mountain. This created long lift lines on weekends and frustrated alot of folks. They probably lost people because of this.

I have mixed feelings about a HSQ replacing Rangely Chair. It's expensive and the mountain has been abandoned for five years. Who knows what hidden expensive repairs night need to be made. This isn't exactly a owner with alot of money they are willing to spend.

z1000307470

joshua_segal;c-40413 wrote
z1000307470;c-40408 wroteThey replaced the wrong lift.
We live in a world where snowboarders need to be accommodated. One had to be an expert boarder just to ride the Kennebago T-Bar.

True, but they got the replacement order wrong. The vast majority of skiers are able to ski off the Rangeley. They should have done that first as a FGQ. It would have stabilized the area.

Sully

z1000307470;c-40425 wrote
joshua_segal;c-40413 wrote
z1000307470;c-40408 wroteThey replaced the wrong lift.
We live in a world where snowboarders need to be accommodated. One had to be an expert boarder just to ride the Kennebago T-Bar.
True, but they got the replacement order wrong. The vast majority of skiers are able to ski off the Rangeley. They should have done that first as a FGQ. It would have stabilized the area.

100% correct. Back in 2008 when the Kennebago Quad was installed they really should have sat down with Dopp, Poma, and Skytrac(at that time still an indy I believe) and discussed options moving forward. Within 12 months of the Kennebago install there were talks about replacing the Rangeley and installing a brand new lift in the new Magalloway area. Surely someone would have been interested in two or three summers of consistent work at a time when installs were few and far in between.

TomWhite

sugarloaf;c-40420 wroteThe reason it wasn't replaced is because the Berry's didn't want to spend any more money on Saddleback. For better or worse, it was bought by a family with no ski area ownership experience. It wasn't managed properly and haphazardly expanded.
.

They spent big bucks on that beautiful lodge. Yet at the beginning of the summer, they said, unless we get $3 mill. to replace the Rangeley, we won't open. They didn't and they didn't. That has always baffled me. Surely, they could/should have known earlier and spent money where needed. Now as the concern has been raised, spending the right money to attract enough customers, without over spending, is new owners' task.

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