What makes the perfect glade?

joshua_segal

riverc0il;c-43678 wrote8' from the highest winter snow pack is sufficient. 8' during maintenance time is no where near enough. Maybe for southern New England where 2' snow pack in the woods is a lot.

But in northern New England, 8' clearance from dry ground would be impassable for most people during the winter. In NoVT, the snowpack can occasionally get to 8' deep in places. NNH can get to 4' deep at times. Winter hikers can attest to this.

Limbs are cut using saws with long handle pole pruners/saws. These can easily reach well over 10' off the ground to give a proper 10' clearance. Not a problem at all.

Below the ceiling, limbs need to be shorn to the trunk, never left extended or cut in half. I have done line maintenance and seen the results of poor clearance vertical and horizontally. Things look a lot different with and without snow cover.

If I had one of those pole chainsaws, 10' to 12' is (IMO) the right number, but I don't have one, so I am limited to how high I can reach.

JimK

Not sure what makes the perfect glade, but I know it when I see it ;)

Paradise, MRG:

Cloudsplitter, Whiteface:

Flying Monkey, Sunday River:

A glade of Aspens near FIS chair, Aspen Mountain:

Not far from the Pali Chairlift line, Arapahoe Basin:

Castle Creek trees, Sierra at Tahoe:

Maybe you guys can tell me from the photos what is it about these glades that made them fun to ski?

ski_it

JimK;c-43684 wroteNot sure what makes the perfect glade, but I know it when I see it ;)
Maybe you guys can tell me from the photos what is it about these glades that made them fun to ski?

The snow, the even space between trees, the consistent fall line, the snow.
Nice pics once again Jim! First glance at #1 and I thought Castlerock.

joshua_segal

I love your photos, but I think the issue is, "how to prepare a glade". For example, I love the Anarchy/Juanita/Julio's combination at Killington - but that bottom section where one drops into the lower Flume is almost always bony.

Paradise (MRG) is beautiful terrain, but the waterfall is problematic except in the deepest snow years.

When one is skiing glades as shown in JimK's photos, I know a good glade when I see it too. However, I think this thread is more about what the terrain should look like when there is no snow on it.

TomWhite

The bottom of the 3 Killington glades that Joshua mentions are classic “rocky situations”. Once scrapped off, I go skier’s right (toward Ovation) off Julio through the woods. I’d rather pick my way through brush than rip my bases on rocks. This is where my wood chips idea (#7 on my first post) would be useful.

While the Castlerock area is classic narrow trails, there are no dedicated glades. Several years ago my buddy and I had fun in the woods. On one run, we skied beside Rumble till it got too tight and steep for us at the middle pitch. Cover was good, we simply got back onto the trail.

For my only time at Mad River over 30 yrs. ago, I didn’t ski glades.

joshua_segal

TomWhite;c-43696 wroteThe bottom of the 3 Killington glades that Joshua mentions are classic “rocky situations”. Once scrapped off, I go skier’s right (toward Ovation) off Julio through the woods. I’d rather pick my way through brush than rip my bases on rocks. This is where my wood chips idea (#7 on my first post) would be useful.

....

I know the traverse to Ovation, but it has its problems too.

My experience with wood chips is they don't stay in place on steeper pitches. We need coat the rocky surface with clayey material - or if its not bedrock, remove the offending rocks.

On one of the glades I work on, I tried covering a large rock with dirt and branches. By the following spring, erosion took its toll. I spent a good bit of time actually prying the rock out of the ground and moving it off the glade. Haven't had a problem in that area of the glade since then.

TomWhite

Rocks and rocky terrain are major issues. Decades ago, I hiked to the top of Mt. Whittier. On the way up, I walked through a huge hardwood grove. I said, wow this would be a great glade. When I reached the top, I saw large areas of exposed, fairly flat rock slabs. Some were level, some were pitched. A covering idea came to mind: 1. In the spring cover the slabs with a few inches of wood chips. 2. Plant a ground cover that has much horizontal roots. 3. Cover the area with netting that will disintegrate after a couple of years. The net would be staked into the ground around the slab. The stakes would be wooden or a bio friendly product. Before the vegetation roots and before the chips turn into soil, erosion is a concern, thus the netting.

joshua_segal

TomWhite;c-43700 wroteRocks and rocky terrain are major issues. Decades ago, I hiked to the top of Mt. Whittier. On the way up, I walked through a huge hardwood grove. I said, wow this would be a great glade. When I reached the top, I saw large areas of exposed, fairly flat rock slabs. Some were level, some were pitched. A covering idea came to mind: 1. In the spring cover the slabs with a few inches of wood chips. 2. Plant a ground cover that has much horizontal roots. 3. Cover the area with netting that will disintegrate after a couple of years. The net would be staked into the ground around the slab. The stakes would be wooden or a bio friendly product. Before the vegetation roots and before the chips turn into soil, erosion is a concern, thus the netting.

That's good and I'm pretty sure it would work. I'm happy to give my time for the work that I do, but not into spending my money for it.

One of the things I've discovered: Assuming no one is going to drive up a truckload or two of dirt, the dirt has to be acquired by digging in one off-piste/off-glade place and moving it. These mountains tend to be rocky and to dig up and move a yard of dirt takes hours.

TomWhite

Transporting material (dirt/wood chips) is a challenge. I’ve thought of using chairlifts. Barrels similar to those used for weight inspection could be used. Instead of water, they would contain wood chips or dirt. That gets them up, I guess rolling or sliding them to the site would get them where needed. Trucks could be used if a maintenance road is near. The reason I like wood chips is two-fold. First, wood, dead and thinned, is plentiful near-by. Second, that wood needs to be re/moved. Chipping it accomplishes that task. Transporting a single chipper, large enough for the task, seems manageable. It could be trucked up a road. Using a winch, it could be lowered (then raised) on an open trail to near the glade and wood to be chipped. Barrels would be needed to take the chips to the dump site. I’ve not come up with an idea for bringing a large chipper into a tight glade far from open trails or maintenance roads.

lotsoskiing

Flakes of hay bales, laid down over rocks, turn to grass eventually. MRG did this many years ago to good effect

JimK

joshua_segal;c-43691 wroteI love your photos, but I think the issue is, "how to prepare a glade". For example, I love the Anarchy/Juanita/Julio's combination at Killington - but that bottom section where one drops into the lower Flume is almost always bony.

Paradise (MRG) is beautiful terrain, but the waterfall is problematic except in the deepest snow years.

When one is skiing glades as shown in JimK's photos, I know a good glade when I see it too. However, I think this thread is more about what the terrain should look like when there is no snow on it.

Understand. Sorry, didn't mean to be a wise guy. It's just that I can't resist bringing a subject alive with a few of my photos.

The idea of landscaping and maintaining tree skiing areas in the mid-Atlantic exists, but it is not as robust as New England. Originally, 1950s-70s, none of our ski areas allowed tree/glade skiing of any kind. Skiing was permitted on groomed/maintained trails only and ski patrol would pull your ticket if you didn't adhere to that. In the last 20-30 years that has changed, perhaps half of the dozen ski areas within three hours of Wash DC offer tree/glade skiing, albeit on a limited basis. Only a few offer truly noteworthy tree skiing, and of course only for a few weeks each winter when there is enough snow to fill in the woods. This is a long winded way of saying that there are only a handful of ski areas in my local area, Timberline/Canaan Valley WV, Blue Knob PA, Seven Springs PA, and Laurel Mtn PA that probably have a culture and an interested skier base that actually practices any sort of glade maintenance such as fall stump-clearing parties, etc.

Because of all of the above, the best candidate terrain for glade skiing in the mid-Atlantic region is low angle, sparsely treed, and near trails/snowguns so it catches over-blown manmade snow to supplement meager natural snow. Here are a couple of examples:
Skyline Glade, Blue Knob, PA:

Laurel Mtn, PA, this young skier risked life and limb for this shot in low natural snow coniditions:-)

Seven Springs, PA:

Cherry Bowl, Timberline Mtn, WV:

joshua_segal

JimK;c-43706 wrote
joshua_segal;c-43691 wroteI love your photos, but I think the issue is, "how to prepare a glade". For example, I love the Anarchy/Juanita/Julio's combination at Killington - but that bottom section where one drops into the lower Flume is almost always bony.

Paradise (MRG) is beautiful terrain, but the waterfall is problematic except in the deepest snow years.

When one is skiing glades as shown in JimK's photos, I know a good glade when I see it too. However, I think this thread is more about what the terrain should look like when there is no snow on it.
Understand. Sorry, didn't mean to be a wise guy. It's just that I can't resist bringing a subject alive with a few of my photos.

The idea of landscaping and maintaining tree skiing areas in the mid-Atlantic exists, but it is not as robust as New England. Originally, 1950s-70s, none of our ski areas allowed tree/glade skiing of any kind.
...

Laurel Mtn, PA, this young skier risked life and limb for this shot in low natural snow coniditions:-)

...

There was a significant time period when glade skiing pretty much disappeared in the NE. Most vivid in my mind was Downdraft at Killington.

Your photo of Laurel is what most of southern New England's glades look like for all but a week or two of the season - which is why preparation of the ground when there is no snow is so important.

NELSBEER

A simple heads-up, if you succeed in getting a big gas chipper up the hill and into the woods, be sure to keep it level. Years ago they were using one at Crotched & burned out the motor when the oil didn't get re-circulated from the pitched unit's oil pan.

I have a small cheap electric chipper, says 1 1/2 inches but 1 inch real maximum from Harbor Freight. I've been using with lots of extension cords but a small generator could run it as well. Makes some chips for fill and reduces carrying branches and saplings to the edge of the hill.

drsmooth

Interesting video about glade maintenence, Trippy music too!

joshua_segal

Superb video. It shows what can be done when the mountain actually invests in their glades. Saddleback did a "community glade day" before the last season they were open which yielded the "Woolie Bugger" Glade. They had a training session for the participants and provided mountain support with chain saws, etc.

The Beavers at BMOM as I understand it, are fully volunteer, but have the full approval of the mountain for the work they do. A lot of other places, glade work is ad hoc, in many cases, by unknown volunteers.

TomWhite

Good and informative video.

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-43716 wroteSuperb video. It shows what can be done when the mountain actually invests in their glades. Saddleback did a "community glade day" before the last season they were open which yielded the "Woolie Bugger" Glade. They had a training session for the participants and provided mountain support with chain saws, etc.

The Beavers at BMOM as I understand it, are fully volunteer, but have the full approval of the mountain for the work they do. A lot of other places, glade work is ad hoc, in many cases, by unknown volunteers.

Yes, the Angry Beavers group is all volunteers and they hold work days throughout the year I'm addition to individuals going out and working when they can. In addition to regular glade maintenance, there are usually 2-3 new glades cut each summer (which is why the trail map can't keep up).

ski_it

Then there's these guys:

The Vermont Department of Forests, Parks and Recreation, in cooperation with The Green Mountain Club, Jay Peak Ski Resort, and the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board will be restricting winter access to Big Jay from the Jay Peak Ski Area for the 2007-2008 ski season.

This action comes in response to an illegal ski trail that was cut on Big Jay this summer.
This property was acquired in 1993 by the State with the assistance of The Green Mountain Club and the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board to protect the Long Trail and important natural habitat. Big Jay is part of Jay State Forest and is a popular location for backcountry skiing. Though adjacent to the Jay Peak Ski Area, Big Jay is not within and is not serviced by the ski area.

In July of this year, the Green Mountain Club received a call from a tram operator at Jay Peak Ski Area, who reported that a large swath of trees had apparently been cut at Big Jay. In following up on this report, it was determined the illegal ski trail was more than 2,000 feet long and up to 60 feet wide and that nearly 1,000 trees had been cut.

The alleged perpetrators have subsequently been arrested for the trail-cutting and are currently awaiting trial. “While we have been concerned about some light cutting in the past by backcountry skiers and riders at Big Jay, this new cut goes way beyond that and poses significant environmental and safety concerns,” says Jonathan Wood, Commissioner of the Department of Forests, Parks and Recreation. “We feel it is necessary to keep people off the illegally cut trail, for their own safety as well as to allow for restoration to occur.”

Sgt. Bradley Mann, a game warden for Vermont's Department of Fish and Wildlife, told a Vermont District Court he had begun an investigation when two men approached him, confessed to the cutting, and brought him to a chainsaw and other tools they had hidden. Paul Poulin, 47, of Newport, and Alan Ritter, 46, of Jay, were charged with felony mischief, a crime that carries a maximum penalty of five years in jail and a $5,000 fine. The state believes the two men cut the trees to build a private ski trail, three-quarters of a mile long and up to 65 feet wide in places. An estimated 873 trees were cut, on which court documents put a replacement cost of $47,883. They pleaded not guilty at their arraignment in September, despite their written confession. Their case is ongoing. Jay Peak is famous for its glade skiing.

While skiers and riders will not be permitted on the illegal trail and will not be allowed to access Big Jay directly from Jay Peak Resort, backcountry enthusiasts can still skin in or snowshoe up into Big Jay from Route 242 and ski or ride down. However, the cutting of any vegetation in this area whatsoever will not be permitted and will be strictly enforced.

(excerpted from a couple sources)

TomWhite

I remember this story and photos. These guys are the reason some government control is needed for state and federal forest. On the other hand, I understand that California hasn't removed dead trees (fallen and standing) for many years. This contributes to forest fire hazards. That’s going too far the other way with no cutting or clearing.

ski_it

I always wonder what they did with 873 trees worth of debris...

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