joshua_segal
NewEnglandSkier13;c-47901 wrotejoshua_segal;c-47899 wroteslatham;c-47898 wroteCannonball;c-47897 wroteThis season is one notch above last season. We never had any spectacular powder days this season. But we did just have an amazing 8-day stretch of gorgeous, late March spring skiing. Spring skiing was a major loss from the shutdown in March 2020.
No spectacular powder days this season? Where are you referencing?
Like slatham, I don't understand cannonball's response above.
Unless there is some spectacular spring skiing in April and May, I see the only argument on this season to be: Is it one above or one below the COVID-shortened 2019-20 season? I.e. is it 8th or 9th among the last 10 seasons?
Are we doing this rating based purely on snow conditions or are we also taking into consideration how well the ski areas did financially?
As always, it's very subjective and it's up to each person to decide. What I reject are those who cherry picked the dozen or so great days of this season.
Economically, it can't have been good. Even with no substantial decline in skier visits, the loss of food and beverage revenues would be hard, if not impossible, to make up.
I don't know about other areas, but at CM, the kid's program was 30% of last year's due to indoor space limitations.
Snow-wise, it wasn't great with long droughts between the early Dec. and the late-Feb. storms. The far northern areas and the far southern areas fared much worse than the Mt. Snow to Killington belt.
The giant positive was the absence of a January thaw - and the end-of-season, unlike last year's mandated early close, was too early due to an unusually warm March.
Weekend lines were awful - most likely due to lifts running at half capacity.
What else is important to you?
NewEnglandSkier13
Economically it was great for us and I've heard similar things from other independent ski areas in the state. Food and beverage sales were down, season pass sales were slightly down, and seasonal lessons were slightly down, but group lessons were up, private lessons were way up, uphill ticket sales were way up, Nordic ticket sales were way up, snow tubing visits were just about maxed out, and day tickets sales were so high that we added another day to our operating schedule part way through the season. The increased areas of sales more than made up for the areas that were down and we had one of our best seasons ever economically.
In regards to snow, it wasn't great. There was a poor start to the season with the rain around Christmas where we lost all of our natural snow and much of our man-made base. That was followed by a decent January and February without a great amount of natural snow, but consistently colder temperatures which preserved what snow we did have. We were able to remain 100% open from mid-January to mid-March. Unfortunately March was terrible and we received so little natural snow that we had to make snow in the middle of the month, which is very rare for us. Continued warm temperatures meant that we barely made the last weekend of the month and were unable to ski into April.
Lines were longer than we normally see them, but they were almost never more than 5 minutes long, so they weren't too terrible.
Overall, I would rate it one place above last season because we did much better economically, even though we had much less snow.
xlr8r
I don't think economics of food and beverage should affect our ranking of the season. Other Coivd affected aspects like crowds yes, lift lines yes, reduced staffing yes, reduced snowmaking yes, as those all affect the quality of the skiing.
joshua_segal
xlr8r;c-47905 wroteI don't think economics of food and beverage should affect our ranking of the season. Other Covid affected aspects like crowds yes, lift lines yes, reduced staffing yes, reduced snowmaking yes, as those all affect the quality of the skiing.
Disagree. The food and beverage revenue are part of what fund lift and snowmaking expansion.
joshua_segal
NewEnglandSkier13;c-47903 wrote
...
Overall, I would rate it one place above last season because we did much better economically, even though we had much less snow.
I agree with your conclusion, but not for all of the same reasons.
slatham
Personally I think this ranking should focus on conditions. While that is often highly correlated to ski area economics, my ranking isn't gong to be impacted by F&B being down 30%. There's also the issue of not having transparency into skis area economics (except maybe Vail, but even there it gets blended with a bunch of areas). Maybe a separate thread on the business side, which I think would be very interesting.
Also, FWIW, I too have heard this year was better economically than what was feared. So while some revenue sources were down so were costs and I think areas made more money than they expected. But thats very anecdotal.
xlr8r
joshua_segal;c-47906 wrotexlr8r;c-47905 wroteI don't think economics of food and beverage should affect our ranking of the season. Other Covid affected aspects like crowds yes, lift lines yes, reduced staffing yes, reduced snowmaking yes, as those all affect the quality of the skiing.
Disagree. The food and beverage revenue are part of what fund lift and snowmaking expansion.
This ranking is not a ranking of what season was most profitable for ski areas, it is a ranking of the quality of skiing by the customers.
Cannonball
slatham;c-47898 wroteCannonball;c-47897 wroteThis season is one notch above last season. We never had any spectacular powder days this season. But we did just have an amazing 8-day stretch of gorgeous, late March spring skiing. Spring skiing was a major loss from the shutdown in March 2020.
No spectacular powder days this season? Where are you referencing?
Cannon did not have any spectacular powder days this season.
joshua_segal
We've been doing this thread for over a decade and I recognize that condx at one area do not translate to all of New England. There are cases where there are two adjacent areas: their snowmaking and grooming is not an industry-wide thing.
I also recognize that those amongst us of different aspects of a ski season which we weight higher or lower. As riverc0il has pointed out, I have a bias toward considering the economics of a season and the length of a season.
As of now Sam (NES13) and I agree that this season is one above last season. Where do you place the season and as I said before, "What I reject are those who cherry picked the dozen or so great days of this season and are not basing their placement on the season as a whole."
Cannonball
joshua_segal;c-47911 wrote
As of now Sam (NES13) and I agree that this season is one above last season. Where do you place the season
Cannonball;c-47897 wroteThis season is one notch above last season.
lotsoskiing
My 2 cents: A season where there is not a large percentage of terrain open by Crhristmas and most areas shut by April 1 is below average to bad. However, the lack of terrain-eating thaws between XMas and early March (and required additional snowmaking) pulls this one out of the basement for me. Lower third is my vote.
joshua_segal
lotsoskiing;c-47917 wroteMy 2 cents: A season where there is not a large percentage of terrain open by Christmas and most areas shut by April 1 is below average to bad. However, the lack of terrain-eating thaws between XMas and early March (and required additional snowmaking) pulls this one out of the basement for me. Lower third is my vote.
Short memory: There was a lot of terrain open by Xmas. Then there was the Xmas rainstorm!
And the end of March closing? Except for the big boys, that's only off by a week from normal.
The question at this point is: better or worse than 2019-20? Either way puts it near the bottom third.
xlr8r
For me its about tied with last year. I will place it ahead of last year solely because last years unexpected covid shutdown, this year it at least ends on our own terms. But if last year went the distance it would have been better than this season. The highs were much higher last year. This year has been consistently good, but rarely great. I never really got a proper powder day this season, but got several last season.
NewEnglandSkier13
joshua_segal;c-47918 wrotelotsoskiing;c-47917 wroteMy 2 cents: A season where there is not a large percentage of terrain open by Christmas and most areas shut by April 1 is below average to bad. However, the lack of terrain-eating thaws between XMas and early March (and required additional snowmaking) pulls this one out of the basement for me. Lower third is my vote.
Short memory: There was a lot of terrain open by Xmas. Then there was the Xmas rainstorm!
And the end of March closing? Except for the big boys, that's only off by a week from normal.
The question at this point is: better or worse than 2019-20? Either way puts it near the bottom third.
The main difference about the closings is that in most years, areas around here close near the beginning of April because they wouldn't make money staying open any later, not because they ran out of snow. This year, ski areas around here closed at the end of March because there was simply not enough snow left to stay open longer. Usually people will be earning turns for weeks after BMOM closes. This year, there probably won't be enough snow left to do a top-to-bottom run by Wednesday.
riverc0il
Most northern NH and northern VT areas are one third below average annual snowfall. There were no blockbuster storms at all. Maybe two storms that dropped a foot (if you count the one before most areas opened). Pathetic year for powder days and natural snow. And I couldn't be happier for that, given the VT travel restrictions.
I know southern NH and southern VT did pretty good on these metrics. However, if there had been a January thaw... it might have been one of the worst seasons in my lifetime for northern areas. The consistent cold and occasional small refreshes saved the season from being ranked amongst the all time worst.
Given the early melt down and areas closing earlier than normal, I am surprised some posters would even consider this season average. SoNH must have clearly gone off even more than it looked like it did.
joshua_segal
Mar. 31, 2021:
Fifth (and possibly last) summary: 2020-1 Season
The absence of fresh snow, the unusually hot (not just warm) March, the early closing of many areas, all contributed to the dropping this season a couple of places. Consensus (although only 4-inputs) is that this season was better than the COVID-shortened 2019-20 season. That places this season in 8th place of the 11 slots available.
----
2010-1: Good snow Xmas, MLK and pres. week. No January thaw to speak of.
2012-3: While there was little snow in December and January, February and March were epic. The snow that did happen in December was right before Christmas week which was timely from an economic point-of-view. Same was true of the January snow with respect to MLK weekend. Although there was minimal early snowfall, there was a lot of good snowmaking weather in December. There were two nasty January thaws, but great mid-winter skiing right into April. Ski areas closing with 100% full-width open trails.
2018-9: Killington and Sunday River both opened on Oct. 19. Nov. snow and skiing was epic. Christmas week was above average, economically speaking. Jan. had a couple of thaws, but no major meltdown. There was a decent February, and 8 of the 9 days of Presidents Week featured great snow and great weather providing the industry a near record week. Most of VT, ME and northern NH had above average snowfall, but even the more southerly areas had great snowmaking weather to make up for any deficits. Early April featured some superb spring skiing, but mid-April included a severe meltdown where Killington dropped from 80 to 15 runs in a 2-day period. Despite that, the glacier on Killington's Superstar held up until June 2.
2013-4: The fact is, the season had a promising start, but two major meltdowns really put a damper on the season. Mad River Glen was all but shut down for a couple of weeks in January. January was unusually cold. We had a great Feb. vacation week, ending in a thaw that pretty much "firmed up" the surfaces followed by a major cold snap. The skiing in March was epic from Killington north and pretty good elsewhere. Superb skiing continued in April. Those in the Mid-Atlantic states might rate this season as #1.
2016-7: Early season: Excellent, but only at Killington; Snowfall: Average to average plus; Economics: Excellent Christmas week both weather-wise and snow; MLK Weekend was excellent despite a generally poor January; February: Thru the 15th: epic; Presidents day thru Mar. 10 - gruesome, remainder of the season: Awesome; Killington makes it until June 1.
2017-8: No October skiing - Nov. 8 opening; credible Thanksgiving for bigger areas; fantastic snow at Xmas break but record low temps made the week an economic flop with most ski areas. Killington, Wildcat and other venerable giants of the industry, all closed for one or more days due to extreme cold. Jan. 10 started a 36-hour epic meltdown which turned MLK weekend into an economic disaster. Just as surfaces were beginning to recover, another meltdown pretty much neutralized Presidents Week. Most major storm following MLK day were followed by either rain or an extend meltdown. March and April have been epic. Killington just missed Memorial Day, but more areas were open in May than in any recent year.
2014-5: Early season: - No October skiing, but great from mid-November to mid-December; Christmas: Rain - pretty well killed the business for the week; January including MLK Weekend: Bad - not much snow, not much business; February: Unbelievably great snow, but record cold weather kept the crowds away; Late season was great with Killington going until Memorial Day.
2020-1 Early season curtailed due to COVID-19. Mid-December was off the charts. After a Christmas disastrous warm rain, there has been consistent cold weather allowing for lots of good snow-making weather, but January has been very light on natural snow. Economically, the ski areas seem to be doing well with people desperate to get outdoors and the absence of a super-spreader event associated with skiing have all been plusses. Despite the lack of January snow, with no January thaw, conditions remained very good. Early Feb. has seen lots of snow events opening glades and non-snowmaking terrain. Except for the ice-storm of Feb. 16, the month included many days of superb skiing. The 2nd half of Feb. and all of March included no natural snow. Long COVID-related lift lines continue to be a problem at most areas.
2019-2020: Early season: - No October skiing, but great from mid-November to mid-December. Xmas week was so-so. Except for MLK weekend, January featured a lot of wild temperature swings and not much natural snow. Snow tended to be better north of the MA border. Feb. was mediocre, with little new snow, but Feb. vacation week was good. Mar. was disturbed by COVID-19 and unusually warm temps. The last New England ski area open were shut down at COB on Mar. 18.
2011-2: After October blockbuster storm, almost no natural snow all season. While the skiing was adequate on snowmaking trails, natural snow glade skiing and other aspects of the sport that involved natural snow, never materialized
2015-6: After a flurry of mid-October skiing at Killington and Sunday River, things went dead for 3 weeks or so. December was one of the warmest in history with almost no snowmaking opportunities. Much of ski country did not even open until after Christmas. The absence of natural snow has minimized glade skiing. Mad River was open a grand total of 45 days and 1/3 of those were Practice Slope only. Killington ran until May 29 despite receiving only 1/3 of its normal snow total. Most areas closed 2 to 3 weeks earlier than usual. A few old timers remember seasons this bad but not in the last 10 years.
Your inputs?
shpride
I have no problem with the placement.
As someone who skis primarily in eastern mass any season with no thaw is a good one. I skied nice packed powder conditions for 2+ straight months. No frozen grandular or ice. I know this doesn’t represent the North East as a whole which is why I’m ok with the placement.
yardsale
I'd move it back up one notch.
Snow/Ski/Weather Conditions: Slow November start. Excellent December until Christmas with a large storm mid Dec. Crappy January but cold enough to make significant snow in order to expand terrain. January turned on MLK weekend and the next 6-7 weeks were fantastic (SoVT) with 3", 4" and 5" refreshes almost every other day. Snowless March coupled with some large rain events. However, many March days featured fabulous spring skiing under bright blue skies.
Other: No lodge, long weekend lift lines, no après beers, travel restrictions, masks and all the other Covid rigamaroll certainly put a damper on the overall skiing experience. New lifts and other infrastructure projects postponed.
riverc0il
yardsale;c-47946 wroteI'd move it back up one notch.
I would move it down one. Given dissent both ways, I think JS's positioning will likely average out and stick. For me, last year was much better than this year even though it was shorter. Quality over quantity, for me.
Actually, last year I skied more days, so last year was better for me for both quality and quantity. Then again, I plan on skiing until June so days are still accumulating. But through the end of March... I skied more than twice as much last year compared to this year, and conditions were better.
yardsale
joshua_segal;c-47911 wrote "What I reject are those who cherry picked the dozen or so great days of this season and are not basing their placement on the season as a whole."
I agree - which is why no January thaw was a large factor for me in my opinion to move it up to the 7 slot. We went 6-7 weeks straight with wonderful skiing - no skied off conditions - which outweighed the early melt down for me. And - the spring skiing, which was early, was still fabulous, with multiple days in a row of warm, but low humidity, non sticky skiing.
