Vail Sucks 2022-2023

NewEnglandSkier13

conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Any idea how crowded those areas have been? They'll have no one to blame but themselves for future overcrowding now.

NewEnglandSkier13

Petition going around against Stowe's paid parking and the impact it is having on nearby state park parking lots: https://www.change.org/p/stoweparkingpetition?fbclid=PAAaYVL3DBPQdMsO0csvzU_ju28_bliv__ajsmDo_BDLsAcLbKRuDuNbX4QjI

joshua_segal

conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.

Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.

joshua_segal

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.

Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.

That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.

ciscokid

Now boys, let’s not

fight

jgreco

18" plus in the forecast. The excitement on the snow report at 9pm is palpable!

Maybe fewer people will show up 🙄

conrad

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58465 wrote Any idea how crowded those areas have been? They'll have no one to blame but themselves for future overcrowding now.

They won't be blaming themselves. The new trail maps all describe the new lifts as increasing the uphill capacity.

DrJeff

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.

I can guarantee you that every ski area operator is always thinking about ways to maximize their profit. Some just go about it in different ways than others. Every ski area operator knows that the weather can quickly turn a good season, where they do turn a profit, into a bad season where they either are less profitable or potentially even operate at a loss. Not something palatable especially right now when the cost of borrowing money, and the cost of supplies and labor is high.

As for the 3 people staffing a quad, I have seen plenty of fixed grip quads over the years where they have 2 operators bumping the quad chair at it's base terminal (one on either side of the chair to help effectively bump it and if needed assist people trying to get on it) and then the 3rd person up in the too Shack overseeing the unloading area

NewEnglandSkier13

DrJeff;c-58475 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.
I can guarantee you that every ski area operator is always thinking about ways to maximize their profit. Some just go about it in different ways than others. Every ski area operator knows that the weather can quickly turn a good season, where they do turn a profit, into a bad season where they either are less profitable or potentially even operate at a loss. Not something palatable especially right now when the cost of borrowing money, and the cost of supplies and labor is high.

As for the 3 people staffing a quad, I have seen plenty of fixed grip quads over the years where they have 2 operators bumping the quad chair at it's base terminal (one on either side of the chair to help effectively bump it and if needed assist people trying to get on it) and then the 3rd person up in the too Shack overseeing the unloading area

Well, that first statement definitely can't be true, especially with a large portion of ski areas being operated by non-profit organizations (Yes, I know that isn't relevant to Vail). Joshua was also suggesting that the double and triple being replaced required 3 operators.

DrJeff

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58476 wrote
DrJeff;c-58475 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.
I can guarantee you that every ski area operator is always thinking about ways to maximize their profit. Some just go about it in different ways than others. Every ski area operator knows that the weather can quickly turn a good season, where they do turn a profit, into a bad season where they either are less profitable or potentially even operate at a loss. Not something palatable especially right now when the cost of borrowing money, and the cost of supplies and labor is high.

As for the 3 people staffing a quad, I have seen plenty of fixed grip quads over the years where they have 2 operators bumping the quad chair at it's base terminal (one on either side of the chair to help effectively bump it and if needed assist people trying to get on it) and then the 3rd person up in the too Shack overseeing the unloading area
Well, that first statement definitely can't be true, especially with a large portion of ski areas being operated by non-profit organizations (Yes, I know that isn't relevant to Vail). Joshua was also suggesting that the double and triple being replaced required 3 operators.

Pretty sure that most non profits, still try and operate in the black, so that they can stay operational, even if a lean year hits.

Heck, there are plenty of organizations that have non profit status, but certainly are profitably entities with atleast 1 person behind them who knows how to use the tax codes governing non profit status to their benefit.

I really don't get how so many seem to think that the term "profit" is a negative term, as ultimately if a business isn't more profitable than not overtime, it's not going to remain in business. Heck, there are plenty of ski area names in countless SJ threads that are direct evidence of what happens when a ski area can't turn a profit over time and "earn" NELSAP status

NewEnglandSkier13

DrJeff;c-58477 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58476 wrote
DrJeff;c-58475 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.
I can guarantee you that every ski area operator is always thinking about ways to maximize their profit. Some just go about it in different ways than others. Every ski area operator knows that the weather can quickly turn a good season, where they do turn a profit, into a bad season where they either are less profitable or potentially even operate at a loss. Not something palatable especially right now when the cost of borrowing money, and the cost of supplies and labor is high.

As for the 3 people staffing a quad, I have seen plenty of fixed grip quads over the years where they have 2 operators bumping the quad chair at it's base terminal (one on either side of the chair to help effectively bump it and if needed assist people trying to get on it) and then the 3rd person up in the too Shack overseeing the unloading area
Well, that first statement definitely can't be true, especially with a large portion of ski areas being operated by non-profit organizations (Yes, I know that isn't relevant to Vail). Joshua was also suggesting that the double and triple being replaced required 3 operators.
Pretty sure that most non profits, still try and operate in the black, so that they can stay operational, even if a lean year hits.

Heck, there are plenty of organizations that have non profit status, but certainly are profitably entities with atleast 1 person behind them who knows how to use the tax codes governing non profit status to their benefit.

I really don't get how so many seem to think that the term "profit" is a negative term, as ultimately if a business isn't more profitable than not overtime, it's not going to remain in business. Heck, there are plenty of ski area names in countless SJ threads that are direct evidence of what happens when a ski area can't turn a profit over time and "earn" NELSAP status

Trying to make enough money to be in the black is different than how Vail squeezes every penny they can out of customers.

joshua_segal

NES13 asks: "Why do you need 3-operators to run a lift?"

On crowded days with understaffing, lifts can and have operated with 2-operators. Ask those who have been lifties for years how many times they've been told to bring a bottle with them to the top shack in case they need a bio-break.

Why do you need 3 lift operators? If lifts are short enough and close enough together, you can probably get away with 2.5. Labor laws in some states (and at all Vail areas), require a minimum of a five minute break per hour + a minimum of 0.5 hours for lunch/dinner.

On cold days, the bumper can't stand out there for much more than 15 to 20 minutes without an opportunity to warm up. Swapping out the top attendant requires time for the third guy to ride to the top and subsequently the previous top attendant to ride down.

I think the math adds up to 3 (or close to it). Each person's 5 minute break. 1/4 man hour per hour. Swapping out top shack attendant: 6 minutes each way. 1/5 man hour. Half hour lunch/dinner break for every 4 hour period: (90 min./4hrs.) 3/8 man hour per hour. That comes to 33/40 of an hour and didn't include the really cold day breaks for the bumper.

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-58481 wroteNES13 asks: "Why do you need 3-operators to run a lift?"

On crowded days with understaffing, lifts can and have operated with 2-operators. Ask those who have been lifties for years how many times they've been told to bring a bottle with them to the top shack in case they need a bio-break.

Why do you need 3 lift operators? If lifts are short enough and close enough together, you can probably get away with 2.5. Labor laws in some states (and at all Vail areas), require a minimum of a five minute break per hour + a minimum of 0.5 hours for lunch/dinner.

On cold days, the bumper can't stand out there for much more than 15 to 20 minutes without an opportunity to warm up. Swapping out the top attendant requires time for the third guy to ride to the top and subsequently the previous top attendant to ride down.

I think the math adds up to 3 (or close to it). Each person's 5 minute break. 1/4 man hour per hour. Swapping out top shack attendant: 6 minutes each way. 1/5 man hour. Half hour lunch/dinner break for every 4 hour period: (90 min./4hrs.) 3/8 man hour per hour. That comes to 33/40 of an hour and didn't include the really cold day breaks for the bumper.

At Black, and I know they do it the same way at some other areas, we had a floating lift supervisor who would cover those little breaks and transitions as needed around the mountain. Ski patrol and mountain ops would also cover if needed. Requiring 3 operators per lift seems like an unnecessary expense, which is odd for Vail.

Brklynskier

joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.

That's under the assumption that the duel lifts being replaced by a single lift would both run at non peak times. In my experience, one of the duals wouldn't run on weekdays or at night.

Loss of a backup lift is a problem at Jack Frost. It's an upside down mountain with no consolidated base area. If a lift were to halt, it's a schlep to get over to another lift to return to the lodge.

Finally, advertising an increased uphill capacity with those changes is just wrong. (They do have new shiny things to point to.)

DrJeff

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58480 wrote
DrJeff;c-58477 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58476 wrote
DrJeff;c-58475 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.
I can guarantee you that every ski area operator is always thinking about ways to maximize their profit. Some just go about it in different ways than others. Every ski area operator knows that the weather can quickly turn a good season, where they do turn a profit, into a bad season where they either are less profitable or potentially even operate at a loss. Not something palatable especially right now when the cost of borrowing money, and the cost of supplies and labor is high.

As for the 3 people staffing a quad, I have seen plenty of fixed grip quads over the years where they have 2 operators bumping the quad chair at it's base terminal (one on either side of the chair to help effectively bump it and if needed assist people trying to get on it) and then the 3rd person up in the too Shack overseeing the unloading area
Well, that first statement definitely can't be true, especially with a large portion of ski areas being operated by non-profit organizations (Yes, I know that isn't relevant to Vail). Joshua was also suggesting that the double and triple being replaced required 3 operators.
Pretty sure that most non profits, still try and operate in the black, so that they can stay operational, even if a lean year hits.

Heck, there are plenty of organizations that have non profit status, but certainly are profitably entities with atleast 1 person behind them who knows how to use the tax codes governing non profit status to their benefit.

I really don't get how so many seem to think that the term "profit" is a negative term, as ultimately if a business isn't more profitable than not overtime, it's not going to remain in business. Heck, there are plenty of ski area names in countless SJ threads that are direct evidence of what happens when a ski area can't turn a profit over time and "earn" NELSAP status
Trying to make enough money to be in the black is different than how Vail squeezes every penny they can out of customers.

If they are really trying to squeeze every penny out of each customer, then why exactly did they drop the price of their passes to the point where they are, as well as then on top of it, offer other discounts to passholders?

The reality is that if they raised the price of their Epic products by say $100, I am guessing that most people would buy another Epic, and the revenue that was lost from those who chose not too, would likely be far offset from the added costs they could charge.

Again, why is "profit" such an "evil" word?

trackbiker

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58465 wrote Any idea how crowded those areas have been? They'll have no one to blame but themselves for future overcrowding now.

They used to be very crowded in the '70's. Not too bad in recent years until Vail bought them.
This is a link to post by a long time, popular Philadelphia TV weather person.
https://northstarsucks.com/2022/01/19/jack-frost-ski-resort-the-lines-are-epic/

Peter

hazlntskier;c-58452 wroteSome new issues for Vail:

1. The website won't let me purchase ski with a friend tickets for Crotched for tomorrow. Website told me to call them. The issue has been going on for 2+ days now.
2. Made two phone calls, one yesterday,one today. Both were very frustrating and did not resolve any issues.
3. The person on the phone didn't know of Crotched, I had to spell it to them. This is after going through a menu 4 layers deep to narrow down which resort (Attitash, Wildcat, Crotched, plus other PA resorts)
4. I was put on hold about 4 times, typically after answering each question.
5. After 27 minutes I was told that you can only purchase the ski with a friend tickets at the resort, which I highly doubt. The web site has worked for the last three seasons without any problems.

It sounded like they have contracted out some of the phone support to people that don't know anything about ski resorts and the region they are serving.

Very frustrating.

Looking forward to some skiing at Crotched tomorrow.

The person you talked to was in the Philippines. That’s where all the resort and Epic customer calls get routed to. The 970 Colorado number is a ruse.

lotsoskiing

Just lurking on some webcams and went to Blue Mt in PA. They got some snow but looks wet now, but good for December

Was curious about conditions and trails....but I defy you to find the report on the site. Nothing. A place for it is on this page https://www.skibluemt.com/winter-sports/skiing-snowboarding/trail-map/ but nothing there...

Marketing department must be out skiing

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