Vail Sucks 2022-2023

NewEnglandSkier13

lotsoskiing;c-58488 wroteJust lurking on some webcams and went to Blue Mt in PA. They got some snow but looks wet now, but good for December

Was curious about conditions and trails....but I defy you to find the report on the site. Nothing. A place for it is on this page https://www.skibluemt.com/winter-sports/skiing-snowboarding/trail-map/ but nothing there...

Marketing department must be out skiing

I found it on their home page:
https://www.skibluemt.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Condition-Report-12-16-22.pdf

NewEnglandSkier13

Looks like other Vail resorts beyond WIldcat, such as Crotched, are missing typed snow reports from their websites. Here is an example from Attitash of how the page looks with a report: https://www.attitash.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/snow-and-weather-report.aspx
And here's Crocthed without one: https://www.crotchedmtn.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/snow-and-weather-report.aspx

lotsoskiing

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58490 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-58488 wroteJust lurking on some webcams and went to Blue Mt in PA. They got some snow but looks wet now, but good for December

Was curious about conditions and trails....but I defy you to find the report on the site. Nothing. A place for it is on this page https://www.skibluemt.com/winter-sports/skiing-snowboarding/trail-map/ but nothing there...

Marketing department must be out skiing
I found it on their home page:
https://www.skibluemt.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Condition-Report-12-16-22.pdf

Excellent, thanks! I was going directly to the camera page and that's the one with no button.

tedede

Y'all would just nitpick the reports if they did post them.

lotsoskiing

tedede;c-58494 wroteY'all would just nitpick the reports if they did post them.

No, I like Blue and they are usually spot on, even with Vail affiliation. Just couldn't find the report based on the site I usually land on (cameras).

NewEnglandSkier13

lotsoskiing;c-58495 wrote
tedede;c-58494 wroteY'all would just nitpick the reports if they did post them.
No, I like Blue and they are usually spot on, even with Vail affiliation. Just couldn't find the report based on the site I usually land on (cameras).

What affiliation does Blue Mountain have with Vail?

lotsoskiing

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58496 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-58495 wrote
tedede;c-58494 wroteY'all would just nitpick the reports if they did post them.
No, I like Blue and they are usually spot on, even with Vail affiliation. Just couldn't find the report based on the site I usually land on (cameras).
What affiliation does Blue Mountain have with Vail?

My bad- I thought they were vail. Must just use same web designer. Had just been looking at Ohio areas with no snow and then jumped to Blue. Caffeine had not kicked in yet

joshua_segal

NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.

BTW: Your attitude is why so many of the areas you like are on the NELSAP list or on the verge of being there.

NewEnglandSkier13

joshua_segal;c-58508 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58470 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58469 wrote
NewEnglandSkier13;c-58468 wrote
joshua_segal;c-58467 wrote
conrad;c-58464 wroteIt's going to be interesting to see what happens at Jack Frost and Big Boulder. The lift fleet is a fraction of what it once was.

Big Boulder:
Harmony Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces three doubles with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h.
Blue Heron Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces a double and a triple with a combined capacity of 2,700 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/big-boulder-pa/
Assuming a capacity of 1,000 p/h for Tannenbaum (as it was at Shawnee Peak), the overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 9,100 p/h to 6,400 p/h or about 29.7%.

Jack Frost:
Paradise Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,400 p/h.
Tobyhanna Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two triples with a combined capacity of 3,600 p/h (i.e. each triple had the same capacity as the one quad).
Pocono Quad (1,800 p/h) replaces two doubles with a combined capacity of 2,000 p/h.
Source: https://liftblog.com/jack-frost-pa/
The overall capacity of the ski area has decreased from 14,000 p/h to 10,200 p/h or a decrease of 27.1%.

Considering that a 500' beginner chair and a 6000' main mountain chair have the same personnel requirements, it looks like they are saving a bundle, especially with each lift requiring 3-attendants and at least one scanner, and they are open 12-hours a day, if all are earning the $20 minimum (which with FICA, workman's comp, etc.) makes it at least $25 per hour per person.

That means Vail is modernizing, perhaps cutting down on the number of skiers per acre and saving 3 lifts times 4 people per lift times 13 hours (shift overlap) per day times $25 per hour or about $4000 per day times 100 days per season for $400,000. I suggest that's not a trivial amount of money - even for Vail.
Yep, it's all about the money for Vail, not the customer experience. Why do fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants? Also, the scanner is an optional position that Vail is choosing to require.
Sam:

That's what corporations do is earn money. What don't you understand? If people are not receiving an adequate customer experience, one of two things happens: The corporation goes bankrupt or the corporation modifies its way of doing business to attract more customers.

The profit and loss sheet and the crowds at Vail Resorts are the proof that a lot of people are happy with their Vail purchase.

Again, my favorite oxymoron which you seem to repeat again and again: No one likes Vail Resorts. They're too crowded!!!!

And how would you minimize theft of service without someone to check tickets? RFID gates still have a human to deal with passes that won't scan.
That attitude explains exactly why you like Vail so much. There are many ski area operators that aren't solely focused on maximizing profits, they actually care about delivering a quality experience that people enjoy.

I'm still wondering why fixed grip lifts need 3 attendants. Maybe one of them could check tickets.
BTW: Your attitude is why so many of the areas you like are on the NELSAP list or on the verge of being there.

What do you mean by that? I don't think any of the areas that I frequent are in immediate danger of going NELSAP for financial reasons. I think it's much more likely that we see the collapse of Vail's empire.

obienick

Vail will collapse. It’s not if but when. When pass prices go up by 20% they can only muster a 6% revenue increase associated with a 12% drop in units sold their upper tier passes while buying FOUR new areas. This all in an economy with huge inflation and huge labor cost increases. The financials just don’t add up to sustainability.

Their Experience Of A Lifetime (TM) is turning people away. Limited snowmaking this year (disasterous last year). Attitash has two routes open from the Yankee… that’s it! Wildcat has 1 and a third routes from the top. Compare in the valley. BW has 3.5 open from the top and Cranmore has 2 from the top with some connectors in the South Quad area.

Sunapee has 2 routes and a loop on Westway open. Crotched has 2 routes and Galaxy open. All their OH areas are closed despite their two competitors (one in OH one in IN) are open. I don’t know about VT. Christmas is in a week. Saying “not good” is an understatement.

Poor grooming quality. I laugh at some of the pics posted to the pass group on Facebook talking about the amazing conditions when there’s huge grooming ruts, 2 foot ice boulders, death cookies galore, etc. in the pics.

Lack of maintenance to their lifts leading them to break down all the time (Attitash last year, Stowe this year). Lack of running lifts. Non lifties running lifts. Grumpy employees some that scream at you for no reason. Bad traffic. Long lines. Charge you to park with no lifts running. I can go on…

Interest rates are through their roof. Their line of credit they’ve been using to fund their upgrades is now suddenly much costlier. Meanwhile their bread and butter resorts — Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckinridge, Keystone — have a ton of aging detachable that need to be replaced within the decade.

So yes, Vail will fail. There’s no evidence they are able to turn this ship around.

joshua_segal

obienick;c-58515 wrote ... Crotched has 2 routes and Galaxy open. .

..

I can only speak for Crotched, so I can tell you that obienick's posting is incorrect.

First, CM opened on Dec. 26 last year. There were serious staffing problems. This year, we opened on Dec. 10 with 2 T2Bs. We've been skiing 3 T2Bs since Tuesday with 2-more T2Bs opening tomorrow.

While CM has about 25 named trails, not counting glades, CM nominally has only 9 T2B routes.

I looked through SnoCountry and could only find a handful of ski areas that were 1/3 open. CM goes into a league of its own with 56% open tomorrow. While today's snow helped, the snow making team was prepared to open all of these runs whether we got this snow or not.

obienick

Well then in that case they haven’t bothered to update the app and the website since then. The interactive map is showing two unique routes (Moonwalk > Meteor and Satellite Summit > Magnitude > Park) plus the Galaxy loop which is about half the vertical, thus my 2.5 routes math.

skelley19

tedede;c-58494 wroteY'all would just nitpick the reports if they did post them.

When they are outdated and inaccurate? Yes I might "nitpick".....

NewEnglandSkier13

Another scary Vail resorts accident. No word on the cause yet, but it looks like they were probably running it in too high of winds.

https://liftblog.com/2022/12/22/chair-falls-from-high-speed-quad-at-breckenridge/

obienick

My guess is that the grip missed the guide rails entering the top terminal. Surprised it was even running in 80mph gusts. My impression Vail has been stricter than Peak in regards to wind holds at Wildcat.

DrJeff

obienick;c-58607 wroteMy guess is that the grip missed the guide rails entering the top terminal. Surprised it was even running in 80mph gusts. My impression Vail has been stricter than Peak in regards to wind holds at Wildcat.

And yet my guess is that numerous guests at Breck today were wondering why they weren't operating some lifts prior to this incident...

So many folks just don't get that for safety reasons, lifts or trails may be closed for a VALID reason!

LiftGuy

DrJeff;c-58612 wrote
obienick;c-58607 wroteMy guess is that the grip missed the guide rails entering the top terminal. Surprised it was even running in 80mph gusts. My impression Vail has been stricter than Peak in regards to wind holds at Wildcat.
And yet my guess is that numerous guests at Breck today were wondering why they weren't operating some lifts prior to this incident...

So many folks just don't get that for safety reasons, lifts or trails may be closed for a VALID reason!

+1 "It wasn't windy in the parking lot, how come my favorite lifts isn't running?"

Beast Patroller

DrJeff;c-58612 wrote So many folks just don't get that for safety reasons, lifts or trails may be closed for a VALID reason!

As a former patroller our goal was to open every trail, glade, etc. we could safely on a given day. Unfortunately, people have become less responsible for their actions & decisions and feel they can do as they choose. Then, when something goes wrong (equipment damage / injury) they blame others.

Don't know all the particulars of this incident but I can't imagine mountain ops running any lift knowing there was weather that could cause something like this.

lotsoskiing

Bad snow reports and mis-assigned photos are fun to use to poke fun at The Borg. This is a whole other level of incompetence. Scary.

That being said, you could not get me on an aerial lift today, even if any run here in NE, which they shouldn't.

skelley19

lotsoskiing;c-58617 wrote That being said, you could not get me on an aerial lift today, even if any run here in NE, which they shouldn't.

Not sure about other NE mountains but Wachusett is running the Monadnock quad (Dopp HSQ) today to service beginner terrain. That lift is pretty low to the ground and well protected from the prevailing wind by trees. Below is the Beginner Cam but not many people taking advantage. It has stopped raining for the past couple hours but not worth it to me to drive over there today with only that lift running.

That Breck rider got lucky to escape with no injuries, wow!

https://www.wachusett.com/the-mountain/media-center/webcams/

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