Bear Den Partners buys Smuggler's Notch

riverc0il

Amazing. Perfect fit.

Chuckstah I would hope for a lower capacity high speed 4 or 6 on Sterling, along with another snow making route down. On Maddona, I would upgrade the 2 lift to a bit higher capacity. With the parts from the two removed lifts, the life of Maddona could hopefully be extended a bit. I hope it makes it onto Indy as I haven’t been up in a handful of years and that would be great motivation to make the long commute.

I like the idea of spaced out high-speed lifts on Sterling and M2, with spare parts going to keep M1 functional for a while longer. Eventually, they will need to give M1 the Castlerock treatment. However, I don’t think they should upgrade lifts until they deal with their snowmaking bottleneck. Smuggs is always very slow to open terrain. M2 is not well utilized and I think would be a better season opener than Sterling. The early season groomed options on Sterling suck.

Not sure they should go Indy without more capacity. The place can already get quite busy on the weekend’s with long lines for the M1 and Sterling. When I skied there more often, I tried to avoid peak season weekends at all costs and only go mid-week mid-season or weekends only early/late season.

Plus, the Madonna lodge can’t handle any more traffic, so it isn’t just the lifts. Though, perhaps they are already limited more so by bed base? Most folks on the Indy can’t day trip Smuggs.

Beast Patroller

riverc0il You certainly know more about Smuggs than I do but I can say that Jon Schaefer is very smart when it comes to resort management so I’m confident that he and his team will make the right decisions moving forward.

Chuckstah

riverc0il I think we’re in agreement on most of this. I envision joining Indy in a similar capacity as Cannon with most weekends and holiday periods blacked out. When I was a regular there (mostly midweek) quite a few years ago now, they definitely had plenty of room for more people weekdays. I think if implemented properly, with blackouts and maybe reservations, it would greatly improve the midweek business. Until lifts are updated Quebec week and possibly even Ontario break week may need a blackout as well. I’ve unknowingly run in to big unexpected crowds midweek in March. I know to check for them now. I’m sure that locals would hate the addition, but change is inevitable.

riverc0il

Beast Patroller You certainly know more about Smuggs than I do but I can say that Jon Schaefer is very smart when it comes to resort management so I’m confident that he and his team will make the right decisions moving forward.

I’ve skied about 20 days at Smuggs, so I am far from an authority. But enough days to know quite a bit about the place. I know full well that starting the season with M2 instead of Sterling is probably a non-starter, even though I’d like to see M1 open sooner via starting with M2.

I just don’t like the terrain off Sterling, I usually only ski that lift to go into the notch. Sterling is a strange layout, the original trails got hacked and much of the terrain is bisected, often off-camber, and lacking continuity.

TomWhite If I recall, Smuggs got state approval to put a six pack in at Sterling years ago. So long ago, the application may have expired

I’ve often wondered if/when that would happen. Probably more likely now with a new owner. Spaced out chairs would help keep downhill capacity in line. I think the mountain does have more downhill capacity now than when the lifts were first put in, given how many people now go into the woods. But the main snowmaking groomed routes from the summit are limited and narrow, so they need to keep low-tide seasons in mind when everyone is on the groomers.

lotsoskiing

Bottomless resources with Graham in the mix. Personally, I think higher-capacity lifts will be an issue, given the nature of the terrain. Madonna Lodge is definitely in need of change.

TomWhite

I skied Smuggs twice when my daughter was a student at St. Michael’s College a decade ago. She got a cheap season pass. I think both days were Saturday. Yes, it was crowded. Well, the lifts and lodges, not the trails. I recall good conditions and many trails (and glades) were open. Thus, I too suggest snowmaking is the priority. The Hall lifts are work horses but it’s time to replace them. If I recall, Smuggs got state approval to put a six pack in at Sterling years ago. So long ago, the application may have expired. I would like to see low capacity detachable lifts if cost isn’t a barrier.

JMaul

Smuggs’ holds a special place in my heart. The family and I have been timeshare owners for over 20 years. I have seen it in it’s time of condo expansion, trail expansion, snowmaking upgrades. I have also witnessed it when the housing bubble burst and services/entertainment/extras were cut back. I have always appreciated the old school, laidback, slow lift vibe that allowed you to experience awesome terrain.

The majority stake sale to Bear Den is a win in my eyes for the continuation of Smuggs’ the way it is and should be. Bill Striztler has been actively seeking a buyer for at least 3 years, likely more. The Vail talk would have destroyed the place and many locals knew this so they support this sale. Sure, there will be improvements that may alter the feel of Smuggs’ today, hopefully not drastic. There was a recent ACT250 renewal for additional snowmaking pipe and the 2005 ACT250 for the high speed 6 pack is still in place with no expiration. The upper lodge has limitations since it sits (or did sit) on leased state land. A few years back I recall a land swap was proposed for the lodge land and surrounding area which would allow them more flexibility and expansion. Not sure if that happened.

Like others have stated, a HSQ on Sterling and M2 would be nice. Bring in IndyPass with heavy limitations (they already have a cap on daily sales beyond season passes). Upgrade that lodge, maybe explore upgrading the Top of the Notch.

Jonni

As far as any upgrades are concerned, I very much agree with what has been said. Lodge capacity should be addressed. If they do any high-speed lifts I think Sterling and/or M2 would be good places to start - with capacities on the lower end. I also think a Castlerock approach to M1 would be desirable too. As much as I would enjoy cruising to the top of M1 in 7 or 8 minutes, the two main routes off of the top cannot support the capacity a HS 4 or 6 would provide. You could opt for a HS double or triple (which do exist in the world), but I feel like you’re gadget-bahning it with a vanity lift project like that (loose meaning of ‘gadgetbahn’ if you need it). I also think they’ll want to do something on Morse. The Village chair is great, but for lessons a double just makes things hard to keep everyone together.

Snowmaking is also a huge element to this as well. There are many times I watch the snow report in the fall and it’s painful to see how quickly other large resorts can lay it down. I also understand that most trails at Smuggs are just super long and require a crazy amount of snow to be able open. So I’m hoping decent upgrades to that infrastructure are coming.

I would also be in love with adding it to the Indy pass since I only live 25 minutes away. That being said - I again agree that limits should be imposed on it - or at bare minimum reservations.

riverc0il

Jonni Snowmaking is also a huge element to this as well. There are many times I watch the snow report in the fall and it’s painful to see how quickly other large resorts can lay it down. I also understand that most trails at Smuggs are just super long and require a crazy amount of snow to be able open. So I’m hoping decent upgrades to that infrastructure are coming.

Right on. I tried a Bash Badge with early/late season free for a year or two (do they still offer them?). I decided it wasn’t worth it because early season was sub-par (unless they get really good early season snow at lower elevations, which is not reliable).

Smuggs may have a lot of long trails, but they are also narrow. They don’t have any wide trails to cover. .And snowmaking doesn’t cover the full resort, as they rely on natural for a lot of trails. But they need to get more options open sooner, for sure.

I think a big cause of snowmaking delay is needing to connecting all the lifts and base areas together. That is a LOT of “useless” snowmaking that they have to do (useless to anyone that never leaves Madonna/Sterling… for example, I’ve still never skied Morse).

obienick

This explains the social media post from Monday featuring the mountain ops managers from Catamount, Berkshire East with the ops manager from Smuggs. But it doesn’t explain why also in the photo was the mountain ops manager from Big Moose (née Squaw). Hmmm… 🤔

Dan

I don’t see any high speeds going in there and I know current passholders are totally against Indy. I could see possibly a multi mountain pass with Burke and BE happening.

obienick

Previous ownership did apply for a six pack to replace Sterling. I do see Sterling, M2, and one or both of the village lifts replaced with detachables. No way M1 could – way too windy.

For those more familiar with the mountain setup… could a new FG replace M1 on an alignment that starts higher up to decrease ride time? With its current length, no way to reduce speeds except for minimizing misleads as it already runs 450 (500 max for double, 475 max for triples, 450 max for quads).

riverc0il

obienick For those more familiar with the mountain setup… could a new FG replace M1 on an alignment that starts higher up to decrease ride time? With its current length, no way to reduce speeds except for minimizing misleads as it already runs 450 (500 max for double, 475 max for triples, 450 max for quads).

It would need to start at the Link/Liftline intersection to be viable, which really isn’t cutting off much uphill time, but it would substantially cutoff the amount of trails one could take to lap the chair. The mountain would also loose marketing prestige of having a T2B 2k lift.

I don’t know if realigning at another angle from near the top of M2 would be viable. Docs, FIS, and the trees in that area would take a beating, and the top of Madonna is pretty cliffy. Not sure about wind direction either, certainly FIS is extremely wind exposed.

That would all be contingent on M2 being the primary lift. Sounds similar to Cannon’s setup… but without the upper lift being lapable for most routes.

snowphoenix

This is great news! I’ve never skied Smuggs, but it sounds like a great ski area and is on my list for sure. Glad that it’s not going into Vail’s hands and getting absorbed into Stowe.

TomWhite

Peter Landsman’s featured video at Lift blog is the Smuggs/Bear Den announcement. https://liftblog.com/

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