Vail Sucks 2021/20??

Bondman

I love Vail. I get to ski Stowe, Okemo and Mt.Snow midweek and all seems fine to me. Pass was less than $300. Rob Katz is a visionary that has changed the ski business so that more people can afford to ski more often.

NewEnglandSkier13

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/vail-mountain-closes-tubing-hill-for-2021-22-season/

No tubing at Vail this season. Instead, they're "improving the skiing experience."

lotsoskiing

NewEnglandSkier13;c-53842 wrotehttps://www.vaildaily.com/news/vail-mountain-closes-tubing-hill-for-2021-22-season/

No tubing at Vail this season. Instead, they're "improving the skiing experience."

Their press releases sound like they were written by a carnival barker.

obienick

Very strange. It could be different out west or at mega resorts, but it is my understanding tubing operations at many places in the east are massive cash cows. The operational costs are so low compared to what it brings in. This would especially be true if you had lights for night tubing where you can ski during the day, get dinner, and tube for a couple hours at night.

Greek Peak, NY put a lot of money into the expanded tubing park about a decade back. Nashoba, MA routinely sells out tubing.

At this point I do not understand how any member of the Board of Directors or any investor doesn’t realize Vail’s corporate pay policy is acting against shareholder value: between the constant PR battle to the worse operation ratio, etc.

lotsoskiing

The picture has the tubing way up on the mountain. Most places have it at the base. M&D hang in the bar while kids tube. No riding another lift or having to have skis.

My guess is their data shows they were not getting enough fannies in the tubes to justify the added snow, staff, and grooming, so pull the plug.

Still another failure of management, IMO. Though I doubt many families base their decision to ski at Vail or not on the availability (pun realized and regretted) of tubing, this is just more of the shell game.

Brklynskier

obienick;c-53846 wrote At this point I do not understand how any member of the Board of Directors or any investor doesn’t realize Vail’s corporate pay policy is acting against shareholder value: between the constant PR battle to the worse operation ratio, etc.

95.83% of the stock is held by institutional investors. Until there's a substantial blip on the balance sheets, most won't pay attention.

Source

DrJeff

The lack of tubing thing, at it's core, may be more about Vail's attempts at risk aversion, underneath it all. Look at some of the choices thay have made about opening, or choosing to not open certain bits of advanced/expert terrain at some mountains, when it hasn't been all about having the staff to make the snow or operate the groomers to get it open.

At the coprporate level, many of their operational decsions have some basis in their risk assesement from the data that their crews of excel spreadsheet analysis folks give various management folks who then provide the input to those who are making the final decsions. From an employee satandpoint, the safety first mantra has some pluses, that also creates some issues from the consumer, fun side of things as well, and not things that just simply can be lumped into the "pandemic related staffing challenges" explanation.

Ultimately what may be the tru downfall for Vail, is their complete reliance on data driven decisions that don't factor into the fun side of the sport, which draws and retains folks, even if it doesn't ened up producing the best looking data on a spreadsheet

obienick

1) They wouldn’t have to hype safety to such an extent if the didn’t overcrowd their slopes

2) How does a safety culture match their PR attitude of getting some trails open no matter what to boost their trail count after their royal F ups in NH? There was a pic floating on the Epic Pass Northeast facebook page of an trail at Wildcat — I think it was Upper Wildcat — with an ice flow fully across the trail with no reasonable way to pass. 100% of natural snow was blown off.

3) How is there a safety culture if you’re paying groomers and lift mechanics less than a fast food burger flipper? Early season grooming at Sunapee and Crotched was down right utter atrocious and flat out dangerous. A drunk monkey could do a better job.

A couple years back you could’ve argued the safety culture issue with the forests of lollipops popping up at the slightest hint of danger. But at this point we’re into a failing corporate structure mode.

lotsoskiing

On the terrain piece, my guess is they believe (through data?) that the vast majority of their passholders want groomers and lower-angle slopes in general (the Okemo model, for better or worse), especially over the December holiday period. Hence the focus on those slopes and relative ignoring of steeper slopes.

Is tubing that risky? I did it once and it is pretty tame, IMO, though big fun for the wee ones. Put a helmet on them, sign the waiver, and off you go...no worse than skiing

obienick

Adding … I think the Broomfield-only decision making worked when you had 10 similar resorts in similar climate. But now you have 37 resorts spread all over the continent and the Broomfied mentality doesn’t delegate anywhere near enough authority to regional managers let alone local GMs and department heads.

Here’s a question for thought: if they don’t have the trust in local GMs and department heads to make appropriate decisions … why did they hire them (more often promote from within) in the first place?

obienick

lotsoskiing;c-53852 wrote Is tubing that risky? I did it once and it is pretty tame, IMO, though big fun for the wee ones. Put a helmet on them, sign the waiver, and off you go...no worse than skiing

Exactly my thought. It’s nowhere near as risky as skiing and all its dangers. The only risk is if the track is too fast and you don’t put down the rubber mats to slow the tubes.

lotsoskiing

[quote=
Here’s a question for thought: if they don’t have the trust in local GMs and department heads to make appropriate decisions … why did they hire them (more often promote from within) in the first place?[/quote]

Someone has to empty the parking meters... :p

obienick

Don’t be silly. That costs too much. They outsourced that!

JMaul

rickbolger

lotsoskiing;c-53843 wrote
Their press releases sound like they were written by a carnival barker.

“We’ve made the decision to focus staff and snowmaking on the core mountain experience"

“Snow designated for the tubing hill will be used to help create an outstanding spring skiing experience.”

I've written more press releases than I can count, crisis responses, rumor control, white papers, you name it. Generated plenty of blather over the years. One time my efforts caused people to holler and stomp their feet at a public hearing. But nothing as nuanced as this. I salute Vail spokesperson John Plack!

lotsoskiing

rickbolger;c-53865 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-53843 wrote
Their press releases sound like they were written by a carnival barker.
“We’ve made the decision to focus staff and snowmaking on the core mountain experience"

“Snow designated for the tubing hill will be used to help create an outstanding spring skiing experience.”

Translation: "We did not make enough to get through spring on the trail next to this, so rather than turn on the guns again, we will move what we made for tubing in order to keep the trail open."

Makes dollars and cents sense, but maybe penny wise and pound foolish, unless tubing was a loss leader and just not paying off (or projected to in the one holiday period left).

trackbiker

Even Vail is not happy with Vail Resorts
https://vaildaily.com/news/eagle-valley/council-members-talk-vails-relationship-with-vail-resorts-at-retreat/

rickbolger

Bondman;c-53837 wroteI love Vail. I get to ski Stowe, Okemo and Mt.Snow midweek and all seems fine to me. Pass was less than $300. Rob Katz is a visionary that has changed the ski business so that more people can afford to ski more often.

If part of his vision of affordability is waiting 42 minutes to pay $9 for this, then yeah.

Source: https://www.vaildaily.com/outdoors-recreation/park-city-criticism-of-vail-resorts-epitomized-by-story-of-a-cold-9-hot-dog/

Peter

obienick;c-53855 wrote
lotsoskiing;c-53852 wrote Is tubing that risky? I did it once and it is pretty tame, IMO, though big fun for the wee ones. Put a helmet on them, sign the waiver, and off you go...no worse than skiing
Exactly my thought. It’s nowhere near as risky as skiing and all its dangers. The only risk is if the track is too fast and you don’t put down the rubber mats to slow the tubes.

The difference is most states specifically exempt ski resorts from ski injury liability. There are no Tubing Safety Acts.

obienick

That doesn’t stop people from still filing lawsuits. It’s the many lawsuits that have to be fought to be thrown out that’s just as big of a cost for insurers than the few that do succeed.

But you do have a point. There is a possible difference in insurance rates between the two.

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