Very well may be Blue Hills won’t make it much longer, but they made it to March 21 last year and that year was a disaster down here so you never know? They already announced they are blowing snow again on Thursday. Will be interesting to see how much longer they can go.
What's different would be the more abundant snowfall prior to March that year.
Nah. I'm a powder hound and powder days are weighted heavily in my critiques. 2021-2022 was not good. Two feet on March 15 and Jay went well into May saved that season a bit. If we get nothing in March and the usual late areas pull the plug early, then I would re-evaluate. Don't forget to consider the first half of December this season, really good start.
I think the issue here is that this type of thread needs to compare seasons "season-to-date" against other seasons, rather than as an entire season. We don't know what the next three months will bring.
If the next three months are trash, then this season drops behind 21-22. If mid-March drops some good storms, this season could still rise in my estimation.
A couple of family/feeder closing after the first weekend in March has zero impact on my opinion of the season. Sucks for them, but I cannot see them having much weight in the overall rating.
And then there's Tahoe:
...BLIZZARD WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM THURSDAY TO 10 AM PST
Lake Tahoe with 4 to 8 feet above 7000 feet. Winds gusting to 60 mph in lower elevations and above 100 mph
Then there’s Mammoth from which my daughter keeps sending me beautiful pics from all season. They were only at 168/176 trails 85” base, 231” season today. Powder / Packed Powder. Their snow report just says under the 3 day weather, Friday Blizzard. Thundersnow.
NWS calls for only 3-6 feet. Oh yes and 70-100 mph winds. And they say Do Not Travel, among other warnings.
That’s the kinda weather where those gigantic snow blowers mounted on plow trucks chew your invisible parked car to shreds
ISNE-I Skied New England | NESAP-the New England Ski Area Project | SOSA-Saving Our Ski Areas - Location SW of Boston MA
And then there's Tahoe:
...BLIZZARD WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM THURSDAY TO 10 AM PST
Lake Tahoe with 4 to 8 feet above 7000 feet. Winds gusting to 60 mph in lower elevations and above 100 mph
Then there’s Mammoth from which my daughter keeps sending me beautiful pics from all season. They were only at 168/176 trails 85” base, 231” season today. Powder / Packed Powder. Their snow report just says under the 3 day weather,Friday Blizzard. Thundersnow.
NWS calls for only 3-6 feet. Oh yes and 70-100 mph winds. And they say Do Not Travel, among other warnings.
I just got back from Tahoe. Alpine and P/T were fantastic- found pow on Thursday, spring skiing on south-facing slopes and winter packed snow on north-facing throughout. Big fun. Will be interesting to see how they turn out but my guess is no upper lifts (if any) until maybe Sunday once this gets winding up. They were behind on snowpack but this will jump them ahead.
This winter has been awful. I will say this and anyone who wants to listen. I was stationed in Washington 2011-2016 and they had some winters where there was low snow and drought. Stevens pass only opened for a couple of months. I'm hoping this is an anomaly but with global temperatures elevating maybe this is the norm.
What's different would be the more abundant snowfall prior to March that year.
Nah. I'm a powder hound and powder days are weighted heavily in my critiques. 2021-2022 was not good. Two feet on March 15 and Jay went well into May saved that season a bit. If we get nothing in March and the usual late areas pull the plug early, then I would re-evaluate. Don't forget to consider the first half of December this season, really good start.
I think the issue here is that this type of thread needs to compare seasons "season-to-date" against other seasons, rather than as an entire season. We don't know what the next three months will bring.
If the next three months are trash, then this season drops behind 21-22. If mid-March drops some good storms, this season could still rise in my estimation.
A couple of family/feeder closing after the first weekend in March has zero impact on my opinion of the season. Sucks for them, but I cannot see them having much weight in the overall rating.
I agree almost 100% with riverc0il's posting above:
Just a reminder: This thread is only an attempt to rank this season vs. the last 10 in NEW ENGLAND.
I enjoy the postings which accurately point out:
1. Different parts of NE have different conditions
2. We all have our own criteria for what constitutes a good or bad season. For example: Riverc0il's top criterion is powder; I tend to look more at skier visits and business successes. (Business success ultimately translates to better snow making, better lifts, better/newer groomers, etc.)
But as much as this season sucks, I've noticed over the years that many in the group respond to the moment and not the whole season to date. In Dec. 2023, there were people in this thread advocating for this season as 1 or 2.
Also, very few of us ski every day. I can't tell you how many times I've headed out on the hill in the AM expecting garbage and discovering: that between snow making and grooming, the conditions are pretty good.
For some for whom it's all about the quantity of natural snow, SW CT hasn't had a great season in over 10 years!
Another thought to think about... when was the last time we had a very warm/rainy event? Most of our warm ups and rain have been pretty limited, immediately followed by a freeze, and did not result in much snow loss (sometimes even a net gain with frozen precip on the back end). I think the December melt down was the only other one this season, right?
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
Another thought to think about... when was the last time we had a very warm/rainy event? Most of our warmups and rain have been pretty limited, immediately followed by a freeze, and did not result in much snow loss (sometimes even a net gain with frozen precip on the back end). I think the December melt down was the only other one this season, right?
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
There were in fact 2-major rainstorms in January in the south that were mostly snow in the more northerly areas. Both of these started as snow and ended in a major rainstorm. In both cases, CM wound up with 2" of heavy-wet goop.
Now CM may be the exception, but except for the fact that gladed skiing has been very limited, the areas covered by snow making remain 100% open with very decent conditions.
Another thought to think about... when was the last time we had a very warm/rainy event? Most of our warmups and rain have been pretty limited, immediately followed by a freeze, and did not result in much snow loss (sometimes even a net gain with frozen precip on the back end). I think the December melt down was the only other one this season, right?
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
There were in fact 2-major rainstorms in January in the south that were mostly snow in the more northerly areas. Both of these started as snow and ended in a major rainstorm. In both cases, CM wound up with 2" of heavy-wet goop.
Now CM may be the exception, but except for the fact that gladed skiing has been very limited, the areas covered by snow making remain 100% open with very decent conditions.
Yes, as highlighted before, that is the big difference. You rely almost entirely on grooming and man-made snow for an indicator of how the season is going while at most more northern ski areas the natural snow quantity and quality makes a huge difference in the experience.
...BLIZZARD WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM THURSDAY TO 10 AM PST
SUNDAY...
* WHAT...Blizzard conditions likely, particularly from Friday
evening through Saturday morning. Snow accumulations between 2 and
4 feet for Lake Tahoe communities, with 4 to 8 feet above 7000
feet. Winds gusting to 60 mph in lower elevations and above 100
mph over Sierra ridges.
* WHERE...Greater Lake Tahoe Area.
Go way west for March-June skiing this year
==================================
I've been in UT for six weeks. We've had the third snowiest Feb on record in Utah. Would you believe that months ago I scheduled a road trip to ski North Lake Tahoe starting on the 4th of March? Hoping the roads are clear and ski areas reopen by then.
Another thought to think about... when was the last time we had a very warm/rainy event? Most of our warmups and rain have been pretty limited, immediately followed by a freeze, and did not result in much snow loss (sometimes even a net gain with frozen precip on the back end). I think the December melt down was the only other one this season, right?
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
There were in fact 2-major rainstorms in January in the south that were mostly snow in the more northerly areas. Both of these started as snow and ended in a major rainstorm. In both cases, CM wound up with 2" of heavy-wet goop.
Now CM may be the exception, but except for the fact that gladed skiing has been very limited, the areas covered by snow making remain 100% open with very decent conditions.
Yes, as highlighted before, that is the big difference. You rely almost entirely on grooming and man-made snow for an indicator of how the season is going while at most more northern ski areas the natural snow quantity and quality makes a huge difference in the experience.
Nonsense, Sam. This is the 21st century where snowmaking and grooming are pretty much an industry-wide necessity at all but the most local hills. Most of the more southerly ones that couldn't afford snow making and newer grooming equipment are on the NELSAP list.
The 9th place (of 11) rating of this season is reflective of the lack of natural snow. If I based the rating only the snowmaking and grooming, this season would be at least 2-places higher. The entire argument is about this season vs. 2021-2.
- Early season - equal
- December - 23-4
- Jan./Feb - equal
- March, even including the forecast for 23-4 - equal
- remainder of the season - TBD
To date: 23-4, based on Dec. is better than 2021-2.
Another thought to think about... when was the last time we had a very warm/rainy event? Most of our warmups and rain have been pretty limited, immediately followed by a freeze, and did not result in much snow loss (sometimes even a net gain with frozen precip on the back end). I think the December melt down was the only other one this season, right?
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
There were in fact 2-major rainstorms in January in the south that were mostly snow in the more northerly areas. Both of these started as snow and ended in a major rainstorm. In both cases, CM wound up with 2" of heavy-wet goop.
Now CM may be the exception, but except for the fact that gladed skiing has been very limited, the areas covered by snow making remain 100% open with very decent conditions.
Yes, as highlighted before, that is the big difference. You rely almost entirely on grooming and man-made snow for an indicator of how the season is going while at most more northern ski areas the natural snow quantity and quality makes a huge difference in the experience.
Nonsense, Sam. This is the 21st century where snowmaking and grooming are pretty much an industry-wide necessity at all but the most local hills. Most of the more southerly ones that couldn't afford snow making and newer grooming equipment are on the NELSAP list.
The 9th place (of 11) rating of this season is reflective of the lack of natural snow. If I based the rating only the snowmaking and grooming, this season would be at least 2-places higher. The entire argument is about this season vs. 2021-2.
- Early season - equal
- December - 23-4
- Jan./Feb - equal
- March, even including the forecast for 23-4 - equal
- remainder of the season - TBD
To date: 23-4, based on Dec. is better than 2021-2.
I completely disagree. Natural snow and terrain makes a huge difference in the ski experience at medium and large places including BMOM, Abram, Saddleback, Sugarloaf, and even Sunday River. And you can't discount the smaller areas either, as they're an important aspect of the industry.
Let's also remember that many ski areas saw record visits during 2021-2022. That's also during the time that Vail wasn't treating its NH mountains too kindly, which also probably affected your rating for that season, whether or not you'd like to admit it.
It's not that complicated. It's just a data-driven ranking vs a memory-driven subjective ranking.
Here are the past 10 years listed in the SnowJournal order and compared to the Bestsnow ranking. Pretty similar. The only major discrepancies are 2012-13 and 2014-2015. This likely has to do with Bestsnow rankings being more focused on snow conditions vs Snowjournal focused on holiday economics, and BestSnow being focused exclusively on central-northern VT vs Snowjournal based on input from across NE (but skewed towards select resorts). Reading the "Other Eastern Regions" section at the bottom of the Bestsnow page is very insightful about these differences.
Except for those 2 seasons, this analysis aligns very well with SnowJournal.
(FWIW I have nothing to do with that site, I just think it's interesting and relevant to this conversation).
This is pretty interesting how close they lined up. You’re right, reading the comments for those two anomaly seasons looks to come down to the economics.
I not really interested in debating which season is best or worst.
Today I final see a brief glimmer of hope for this season, while I know that at 10 days out this is at best "model porn", one can hope!
It is interesting that there is general alignment. Strange on the differences between Rank 1, 4, and 6. SJ Ranking a season 6 and BS ranking it 1 is a significant discrepancy.
I wonder if that is a southern NE bias, perhaps that was a big year in NoVT? My records seem to suggest an average year and in line with the SJ grade (though an absolutely killer November!
The best seasons are not only the snowiest, but have the best overall snow conditions... if snowfall breaks records but a rain/freeze follows each storm, then no total amount of new snow would get the rank to number 1.
FWIW, that best snow site is maintained by someone that was living in CA (last I knew) and never skis the northeast (well, I think TC hit the major northeast areas on a trip or two). So, he is strictly relying on resort snow reports for data, from what I understand.
I do not distrust snowfall totals at most areas between K to Jay. But if he is factoring in resort grading of snow conditions (i.e. powder, packed powder, gran, loose gran, etc)... well, we all know most areas say packed powder almost all the time when they mean machine groom and hard pack.
Unrelated, I traveled from Plymouth to Keene for work today. Almost spring like in Keene, no snow on the ground south of Tilton. Which is wild for the end of Feb.
It is interesting that there is general alignment. Strange on the differences between Rank 1, 4, and 6. SJ Ranking a season 6 and BS ranking it 1 is a significant discrepancy.
I wonder if that is a southern NE bias, perhaps that was a big year in NoVT? My records seem to suggest an average year and in line with the SJ grade (though an absolutely killer November!
The best seasons are not only the snowiest, but have the best overall snow conditions... if snowfall breaks records but a rain/freeze follows each storm, then no total amount of new snow would get the rank to number 1.
...
2014-5: Early season: - No October skiing, but great from mid-November to mid-December; Christmas: Rain - pretty well killed the business for the week; January including MLK Weekend: Bad - not much snow, not much business; February: Unbelievably great snow, but record cold weather kept the crowds away; Late season was great with Killington going until Memorial Day.
That's the blurb on that season. I think it got heavily downgraded on SJ because all 3 big weekends were busts. I don't remember a lot of dissent on placing it where we did.
Comments
Skiing today there today was great!
I think the issue here is that this type of thread needs to compare seasons "season-to-date" against other seasons, rather than as an entire season. We don't know what the next three months will bring.
If the next three months are trash, then this season drops behind 21-22. If mid-March drops some good storms, this season could still rise in my estimation.
A couple of family/feeder closing after the first weekend in March has zero impact on my opinion of the season. Sucks for them, but I cannot see them having much weight in the overall rating.
thesnowway.com
NWS calls for only 3-6 feet. Oh yes and 70-100 mph winds. And they say Do Not Travel, among other warnings.
That’s the kinda weather where those gigantic snow blowers mounted on plow trucks chew your invisible parked car to shreds
I just got back from Tahoe. Alpine and P/T were fantastic- found pow on Thursday, spring skiing on south-facing slopes and winter packed snow on north-facing throughout. Big fun. Will be interesting to see how they turn out but my guess is no upper lifts (if any) until maybe Sunday once this gets winding up. They were behind on snowpack but this will jump them ahead.
This is a week ago. Other NM and a few spots here and there everyone is at low tide. How it ends is anyone’s guess.
Ski Tennessee!
I agree almost 100% with riverc0il's posting above:
Just a reminder: This thread is only an attempt to rank this season vs. the last 10 in NEW ENGLAND.
I enjoy the postings which accurately point out:
1. Different parts of NE have different conditions
2. We all have our own criteria for what constitutes a good or bad season. For example: Riverc0il's top criterion is powder; I tend to look more at skier visits and business successes. (Business success ultimately translates to better snow making, better lifts, better/newer groomers, etc.)
But as much as this season sucks, I've noticed over the years that many in the group respond to the moment and not the whole season to date. In Dec. 2023, there were people in this thread advocating for this season as 1 or 2.
Also, very few of us ski every day. I can't tell you how many times I've headed out on the hill in the AM expecting garbage and discovering: that between snow making and grooming, the conditions are pretty good.
For some for whom it's all about the quantity of natural snow, SW CT hasn't had a great season in over 10 years!
Again, March was not good in 2021-2 either. If April is bad , too - then I will agree.
It was not a great two plus months, but I think it was better than average for the number of epic melt downs. Thank goodness, if we had one or two more melt downs after between Christmas and Pres week, it probably would have been a possibility for worst season of all time, lol!
thesnowway.com
There were in fact 2-major rainstorms in January in the south that were mostly snow in the more northerly areas. Both of these started as snow and ended in a major rainstorm. In both cases, CM wound up with 2" of heavy-wet goop.
Now CM may be the exception, but except for the fact that gladed skiing has been very limited, the areas covered by snow making remain 100% open with very decent conditions.
Yes, as highlighted before, that is the big difference. You rely almost entirely on grooming and man-made snow for an indicator of how the season is going while at most more northern ski areas the natural snow quantity and quality makes a huge difference in the experience.
==================================
I've been in UT for six weeks. We've had the third snowiest Feb on record in Utah. Would you believe that months ago I scheduled a road trip to ski North Lake Tahoe starting on the 4th of March? Hoping the roads are clear and ski areas reopen by then.
Nonsense, Sam. This is the 21st century where snowmaking and grooming are pretty much an industry-wide necessity at all but the most local hills. Most of the more southerly ones that couldn't afford snow making and newer grooming equipment are on the NELSAP list.
The 9th place (of 11) rating of this season is reflective of the lack of natural snow. If I based the rating only the snowmaking and grooming, this season would be at least 2-places higher. The entire argument is about this season vs. 2021-2.
- Early season - equal
- December - 23-4
- Jan./Feb - equal
- March, even including the forecast for 23-4 - equal
- remainder of the season - TBD
To date: 23-4, based on Dec. is better than 2021-2.
I completely disagree. Natural snow and terrain makes a huge difference in the ski experience at medium and large places including BMOM, Abram, Saddleback, Sugarloaf, and even Sunday River. And you can't discount the smaller areas either, as they're an important aspect of the industry.
Let's also remember that many ski areas saw record visits during 2021-2022. That's also during the time that Vail wasn't treating its NH mountains too kindly, which also probably affected your rating for that season, whether or not you'd like to admit it.
https://bestsnow.net/vrmthist.htm
Interesting, but complicated. Based on that chart, can you organize a list for the ranking of the last 10 years?
Here are the past 10 years listed in the SnowJournal order and compared to the Bestsnow ranking. Pretty similar. The only major discrepancies are 2012-13 and 2014-2015. This likely has to do with Bestsnow rankings being more focused on snow conditions vs Snowjournal focused on holiday economics, and BestSnow being focused exclusively on central-northern VT vs Snowjournal based on input from across NE (but skewed towards select resorts). Reading the "Other Eastern Regions" section at the bottom of the Bestsnow page is very insightful about these differences.
Except for those 2 seasons, this analysis aligns very well with SnowJournal.
(FWIW I have nothing to do with that site, I just think it's interesting and relevant to this conversation).
Today I final see a brief glimmer of hope for this season, while I know that at 10 days out this is at best "model porn", one can hope!
I wonder if that is a southern NE bias, perhaps that was a big year in NoVT? My records seem to suggest an average year and in line with the SJ grade (though an absolutely killer November!
The best seasons are not only the snowiest, but have the best overall snow conditions... if snowfall breaks records but a rain/freeze follows each storm, then no total amount of new snow would get the rank to number 1.
FWIW, that best snow site is maintained by someone that was living in CA (last I knew) and never skis the northeast (well, I think TC hit the major northeast areas on a trip or two). So, he is strictly relying on resort snow reports for data, from what I understand.
I do not distrust snowfall totals at most areas between K to Jay. But if he is factoring in resort grading of snow conditions (i.e. powder, packed powder, gran, loose gran, etc)... well, we all know most areas say packed powder almost all the time when they mean machine groom and hard pack.
thesnowway.com
thesnowway.com
2014-5: Early season: - No October skiing, but great from mid-November to mid-December; Christmas: Rain - pretty well killed the business for the week; January including MLK Weekend: Bad - not much snow, not much business; February: Unbelievably great snow, but record cold weather kept the crowds away; Late season was great with Killington going until Memorial Day.
That's the blurb on that season. I think it got heavily downgraded on SJ because all 3 big weekends were busts. I don't remember a lot of dissent on placing it where we did.